Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Only a single burner for calls both way?
Severance negotiations
- Thread starter stuckinthemud
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
Depends on the personal use policy of your company. Personal use in our company is not advised. It’s not prohibited but it is tracked. I don’t do it.
Heck I don’t actually call anyone. Best any one can expect is a text.
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
I always suspect anyone with more than one phone of being a drug dealer or having an affair
Etaf
Established Member
even with policy , i have had to sort out quite a few people around 2016 ish who retired , left a company and then realised they needed emails and text to reset various websites and login details , when they nolonger work - I had a list in those days , I gave a lot of clients to check through
silly things like car breakdown, airlines , clubs etc etc - quite a disaster for some people, and some sites LOST
silly things like car breakdown, airlines , clubs etc etc - quite a disaster for some people, and some sites LOST
If you’re looking for a job now, I’d recommend Alison Green’s site www.askamanager.org. She’s US based but lots of great advice that applies to the uk as well, including spotting employer red flags and on job hunting:
https://www.askamanager.org/2020/07/heres-a-bunch-of-help-finding-a-new-job.html
I also think she’d question your firms policy of ‘allowing’ unpaid leave for interviews, but making the employee state that’s where they were going. Clearly it’s had significant ramifications for you and it might have been fairer to have a different ‘reason’ for being out of the office is this has been a result - or just take a bit of holiday. She’s generally not an advocate of telling employers about applying or interviewing for jobs for exactly this reason. It’s unfair on the employee in the power dynamic and can impact their employment status and career even if they decide to stay. Good luck moving forwards.
https://www.askamanager.org/2020/07/heres-a-bunch-of-help-finding-a-new-job.html
I also think she’d question your firms policy of ‘allowing’ unpaid leave for interviews, but making the employee state that’s where they were going. Clearly it’s had significant ramifications for you and it might have been fairer to have a different ‘reason’ for being out of the office is this has been a result - or just take a bit of holiday. She’s generally not an advocate of telling employers about applying or interviewing for jobs for exactly this reason. It’s unfair on the employee in the power dynamic and can impact their employment status and career even if they decide to stay. Good luck moving forwards.
Keith Cocker
Established Member
It sounds as though, whether a meeting has taken place or not or whatever has or hasn’t happened you now need advice from a professional source beyond this forum. IIWY I would look out the local employment lawyers (citizens advice might be able to refer you) and have an initial discussion - many will do that free. I hope all works out.
Agent_zed
Established Member
check you home insurance. Some policies cover work disputes.
Richard_C
Established Member
I wiould see how it pans out first. Fixable or not?
If it all seems reasonable and the outcome suits you then you might leave lawyers out of it as long as you can. I am retired, still do a bit of advice to clients, but was an HR Manager then HR Director for a company going through lots of change then self employed. I handled many redundancies, site closures, reorganisations, dismissals for all sorts and so on. It was a good employer but the world in which we operated changed and we very reluctantly had to close sites etc. We had a few 'by the book' dismissals for gross misconduct like theft or assault but those things were rare.
When it came to individuals, capability, performance, attendance, just not 'getting on'we would always try to resolve things fairly and quickly and often generously. You can do a lot with goodwill and understanding. But, if they used a solicitor upfront I would send it all to our in-house legal team and step away from the discussions. It became a battle of small print and contracts, no good ever came of it and any decent relationship between employer and employee was broken. There was no way back.
You do have to think about the employer - are they decent or are they 'nasty' or even inept?. The employer and the line manager don't always behave the same - we had the odd renegade manager and had to get adults in the room to repair relationships, but if lawyers get involved the concept of 'repair' often goes out the window. They. after all. only get paid if there is a financial win so fixing things isn't to their advantage.
Ther has been a bit in this thread about SARs - fine but a wise employer won't be putting things you might not want an individual to see in emails or on files. There are phone calls and face to face discussions for that. And if you send or copy it to your (company) lawyer its llikely protected anyway under legal prviledge. So yes, you can fish with an SAR but if you catch any big fish its because the employer or line manager is naive or just plain stupid.
Also thinking about emails etc on phones. Regardless of any employment matters the company has a GDPR duty to protect personal data. Customers, suppliers, other employees, That means they really do have to keep control over who has copies of what and how it is deleted when someone leaves. Yes, there might be a few emails or SMS that relates to you and your employment but most will be general commercial stuff. The employer is obliged to stop you taking that with you - they are not just 'being difficult for the sake of it'.
I much prefer having separate phones for business and personal for all kinds of reasons including that data protection - anthing else is risky and penny pinching. Think of it this way - you have employer's data on your phone, they have the right to delete it remotely. You decide to leave 'in bad faith', put your phone on airplane mode, they can't access it to delete any downloaded information, you get it off via USB cable before going on air again. If it all on their servers and not downloaded then fine, but it's risky. Try explaining to an employee who is being harrased by an ex-employee who took their phone number and email with them when they left. Or a csutomer cold called by an ex-salesperson now working for a competitor. Yes, they could have written it down and there is no way of stopping that, but having it on a personal phone is an open goal. I am over cautious perhaps but we must take this sort of thing seriously.
There is also a lot of myth about tribunal settmenents. The big ones (£250k for a banker etc, the odd million one for discrimination) get reported, but most are much less than that and take ages to respolve. There is a compulsory ACAS mediation - I think 4 weeks from referral now - then when I last looked it was taking almost 12 months to get a date for a preliminary hearing. Longer still for a disposal. The average unfair dismisssal award was !11k, but that is the mean so is affected by the very high ones. The median - if you like, the typical award - is around £6k. A year + of grief for the possibility of £6k? Likely less if you have short service and the employer hasn't been blatantly unfair. That means for most people by far the best use of time and energy is getting a new job, not fighting old battles.
I'm not saying no to involving a lawyer, if you are being demonstrably unfairly treated then yes, don't delay. But if you have a chance of getting what you want without then you might get a better and faster result.
If it all seems reasonable and the outcome suits you then you might leave lawyers out of it as long as you can. I am retired, still do a bit of advice to clients, but was an HR Manager then HR Director for a company going through lots of change then self employed. I handled many redundancies, site closures, reorganisations, dismissals for all sorts and so on. It was a good employer but the world in which we operated changed and we very reluctantly had to close sites etc. We had a few 'by the book' dismissals for gross misconduct like theft or assault but those things were rare.
When it came to individuals, capability, performance, attendance, just not 'getting on'we would always try to resolve things fairly and quickly and often generously. You can do a lot with goodwill and understanding. But, if they used a solicitor upfront I would send it all to our in-house legal team and step away from the discussions. It became a battle of small print and contracts, no good ever came of it and any decent relationship between employer and employee was broken. There was no way back.
You do have to think about the employer - are they decent or are they 'nasty' or even inept?. The employer and the line manager don't always behave the same - we had the odd renegade manager and had to get adults in the room to repair relationships, but if lawyers get involved the concept of 'repair' often goes out the window. They. after all. only get paid if there is a financial win so fixing things isn't to their advantage.
Ther has been a bit in this thread about SARs - fine but a wise employer won't be putting things you might not want an individual to see in emails or on files. There are phone calls and face to face discussions for that. And if you send or copy it to your (company) lawyer its llikely protected anyway under legal prviledge. So yes, you can fish with an SAR but if you catch any big fish its because the employer or line manager is naive or just plain stupid.
Also thinking about emails etc on phones. Regardless of any employment matters the company has a GDPR duty to protect personal data. Customers, suppliers, other employees, That means they really do have to keep control over who has copies of what and how it is deleted when someone leaves. Yes, there might be a few emails or SMS that relates to you and your employment but most will be general commercial stuff. The employer is obliged to stop you taking that with you - they are not just 'being difficult for the sake of it'.
I much prefer having separate phones for business and personal for all kinds of reasons including that data protection - anthing else is risky and penny pinching. Think of it this way - you have employer's data on your phone, they have the right to delete it remotely. You decide to leave 'in bad faith', put your phone on airplane mode, they can't access it to delete any downloaded information, you get it off via USB cable before going on air again. If it all on their servers and not downloaded then fine, but it's risky. Try explaining to an employee who is being harrased by an ex-employee who took their phone number and email with them when they left. Or a csutomer cold called by an ex-salesperson now working for a competitor. Yes, they could have written it down and there is no way of stopping that, but having it on a personal phone is an open goal. I am over cautious perhaps but we must take this sort of thing seriously.
There is also a lot of myth about tribunal settmenents. The big ones (£250k for a banker etc, the odd million one for discrimination) get reported, but most are much less than that and take ages to respolve. There is a compulsory ACAS mediation - I think 4 weeks from referral now - then when I last looked it was taking almost 12 months to get a date for a preliminary hearing. Longer still for a disposal. The average unfair dismisssal award was !11k, but that is the mean so is affected by the very high ones. The median - if you like, the typical award - is around £6k. A year + of grief for the possibility of £6k? Likely less if you have short service and the employer hasn't been blatantly unfair. That means for most people by far the best use of time and energy is getting a new job, not fighting old battles.
I'm not saying no to involving a lawyer, if you are being demonstrably unfairly treated then yes, don't delay. But if you have a chance of getting what you want without then you might get a better and faster result.
Sgian Dubh
Established Member
Truly fascinating that someone's personal mobile is sometimes being sort of integrated into their employer's business. Maybe it's because I value my personal freedom or independence too much, or I'm simply curmudgeonly, but I'd never agree to that, particularly as I'll sometimes go two or three days without connecting my mobile to the internet, just because I can't be bothered with it. I guess I'm a sparing user of my mobile phone in general because it usually lasts between six and eight days between charges, whereas I know people that seem to have to charge their phone at least once a day, and sometimes more. Now, if an employer wanted me to have a smart phone to conduct their business, I'd agree to carrying the one they supplied me, but I can't see that happening now as I'm sort of semi-retired and self employed.
Similarly, I had one line manager at my work once tell me I could access my business email and company files from my home computer in the evening and weekends in order to undertake my work. I gave him a funny look and informed him that I'd never take advantage of that benefit (sic), and that if anything like that needed doing it would be done when I was in the building where I worked during the hours I was contracted to work, ha, ha. Slainte.
You have to ask yourself is all this really worth the stress and hassle, what can be achieved at the end of the day. We do not have enough information about the company, it's size or line of work or what might or might not have happened but would you really want to remain working for that company in the future after the dust has settled ? If you are made redundant then you get I believe a weeks pay for every year worked over a certain age so 4 years is about a months pay so one solution might be for the company to square you up on what they owe including holiday pay and add a months pay then draw a line under the mater and everyone moves on leaving the situation in the past.
We do not know any of the important facts surrounding the OP's situation, there are many variables and either side could be at fault, we just do not know. If the OP has any disability then another set of rules comes into play and the company has a duty to make adjustments to allow for this, maybe the OP has had an incident with a table saw and is having issues using a keyboard, again plenty of synario's and we can speculate all day long but there is a shortage of facts.
Woody Alan
Established Member
Totally agree with all of this. I work for a big corporation who in the early days allowed personal calls on work phone but all calls logged and we had to pin personal calls to be paid for. I never did that and "if" I made a call to the wife to say I would be late home due to work, considered that a duty of care work call. I never use the work laptop for personal use as everything is recorded. I am now getting an updated new work iphone which they say is being partially unlocked for personal use with dual sim etc and I am amazed at how many people are thrilled with the idea. No chance. I will still continue to carry my personal phone and have my personal email seperate. Over the years several people have been dismissed for inappropriate use of laptops at work that beggars belief. I don't want to take any chance of crossing rules which are like shifting sands and open to interpretation. The rule with anything like this including theft at work, is answer the question. " How much is the benefit of what you are taking using etc going to change your life compared to the change of not having a job/income?"
@Woody Alan that is the best way, keep your own phone for your own use unless the company clearly states they have no objections providing usage is sensable, a lot of people do just take the pee and that ruins it for the rest. If the company provides a laptop then that is a tool for you to do your job and not something to book holidays and such on.
Agent_zed
Established Member
All very good for the company but we have no idea if the OP actually wants to leave or has other job opportunities. From what we know so far the OP took a day off to go for a job interview, which as far as I am aware does not breach any employment law or require redundancy.
Richard_C
Established Member
Indeed, but much of the comment here is generic rather than specific so might be of use or interest to others. At the very least it has clarified right to be accompanied or not in different situations, and the importance of thinking about what outcome you want. Look before you leap.
When you read of cases or hear someone grumble about their employer you never know the full story, only one side of it at best and that's normally incomplete. So yes, we don't know anything near enough to fully address the OPs specific questions but I don't think anyone is trying to do that.
Interesting comments on phones, employer behaviour was driven by some old and impractical HMRC rules on taxing mobile phones as a benefit in kind when they were less common. Any personal use triggered the full bik charge, so employers had a recharge rule to avoid that, it wasn't to boost company coffers and was a pain to administer. It actually saved the employee money, I think the tax charge was £240 a year if you didn't do it but it was a long time ago.
Yes nothing wrong with that but there has to be some reason why, you attend a job interview to obtain employment so if I was the boss and one of my employees was attending a job interview then the very least I would expect is the courtesy to be put in the picture, even if that meant being told I was a slave driver, running a bad company and not paying enough for the role. This then allows resolution to be attempted and to work out a way forward, I would ask myself is this person of value to the company, am I under valuing them and am I asking to much at times. Both parties need to be reasonable and honest accepting any criticism as no one is perfect but it could end up with an amicable solution where both the company and the employee gain, on the other hand the boss might just be " I am the boss so do as asked without questions" type where even your best is never enough in which case just walk, no point in flogging a dead horse. Everyone deserves a job that for most of the time you get up and go to work without that feeling of I don't want to be here but for some the money can overide all else so what is the op's objective ? For me the money has not been the driving force, if a position becomes boring or fails to challenge so it no longer keeps the mind occupied then look to see if there are potential moves within that company, approach the manager for a chat and then if you cannot see the solution make it clear you intend to leave, never been a problem for me and never needed arbitration.
