solar water heating

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Phil Pascoe

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After watching Eric's You Tube video on solar water heating I decided to research a bit further - with a house move imminent I'd like to get my thinking in first. I've just visited a "Which?" site that informs me that with a solar system I could save ...wait for it... £55 a year on my hot water bill. Now, with their estimated installation costs of £3000 - £5000, that could pay for itself several decades after I'm dead.
With anything up to thirty baths and showers a week plus at least one load of washing a day (sometimes three) and one load of dishes (sometimes two) that is a lot of hot water (and a lot of water, but that's another story), I must be possible to save a lot more than that.

So, any observations, ideas or bits of twenty twenty hindsight are welcome. I'm not interested in photo voltaic.
 
Have looked at it too and don't reckon it's worth the bother. Pity.
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Gen ... er-heating
However as part of an integrated scheme with a large heat store tank which can save low temp input, it might be different.
Generally I'd be more interested in the passive gain from glazed areas such as conservatories where you get an extra room into the bargain, but only after maximum insulation - which is the best value by far in energy saving terms.
And you could ease up on the baths - you'll wash yourself away!
 
Both BP and Shell had stakes in the UK wind business until they figured out it was a commercial no-no.

With those windmills sitting motionless much of the time. Delivering nothing.

This UK solar fad will go the same route.

In the meantime, some spreadsheet genius (or politician) will come up with ways to sell it as beneficial.

But not to me.
 
I had actually forgotten that a good friend of mine - now dead, so I can't chase him up - put his own in in the early '80s, and he always said that they had saved him a small fortune.
 
How many people going in the new house? Anyways to enforce more showers and less baths??

Pretty much what Jacob said, works best with a large amount of stored water/thermal mass.
 
Yes, the DW and WM use cold, but I'm thinking to store a lot of warm water, so it would save electricity to plumb them to a warm supply. This is pie in the sky at the moment.
 
I've just read Jacob's link, and it gives much the same figures as I had already seen. These would give a payback time of about a century, without costing any ongoing maintenance or breakdowns : this seems absurd, as no one in their right minds would buy these systems. Come to that, no one would manufacture them.
 
My old parish was building a club house with lots of changing rooms and even that wouldn't use enough hot water to justify solar water hearing. However if they ever build a swimming pool, then that could make great use of it as there is a constant need for then heating.
 
Rule of thumb: solar potential is about 1kW/sqm. I calculated our system is about 36% efficient. So our 8sqm is about, on average, 2.3kW during sunlight hours.

How much hot water can you store in that time? We can only do 300 litres at the moment. I'd guess if we had more storage the efficiency would be better*. There's no cost effective way of storing PV electricity at the moment.

Payback in pure energy terms isn't the whole story. The system has a theoretically indefinite lifespan, as there is nothing to wear out apart from a cheap CH pump. So when we sell-up, it adds value to the house, exactly the opposite to PV: <10 year lifespan, expensive unreliable components, ongoing plant renewal costs (if you want to keep it at peak performance).

E.

*Newton's law of cooling (IIRC, in an air draught):

rate of transfer is proportional to the temp difference ^5/4.

Basically, the more cold water you can supply to the system, the more energy you'll collect.
 
Flynnwood":luh8v754 said:
......
With those windmills sitting motionless much of the time. .....

No..no...no. They are not motionless and will slowly be turning even on a windless day. Powered by electricity. To stop them seizing up. The one near Reading on the M4 is one of the most inefficient in the country, consuming more electricity then it generates. Wind turbines need to be where there is wind and preferably offshore.
 
There's a planning application for 14 giant turbines north of us that will dominate most of Hampshire!
And permissions for Fracking in our area too!
We have oil under our village which is being discreetly pumped out, but Fracking is a bit worrying - our water supply comes from the chalk under us?

Even the countryside isn't safe?

Rod
 
The tragedy of all this is this: in none of the above cases is it hard to see what the resource costs and returns are. In almost all of them, windmills, solar electricity generation, tidal power, etc., they're simply not worth doing by any sensible engineering measure you choose to apply.

They cost too much in scarce resources, or they use too much energy in manufacture/installation (an analogue for carbon emission usually), or they're either inherently short-lived or don't generate enough electricity, or it's too expensive to connect them into the grid (e.g. offshore turbines beyond the Hebrides). It's not a case of, "but if we do nothing...", because these things are actually making the problem worse.

Physics and maths don't lie, but politicians are corrupt, and those benefiting from the boom likewise (not necessarily different people). Meanwhile the public are short-sighted and desperate for any reasonable investment in the present economic circumstances.

We can no more meet our emissions 'targets' by international treaty than we can fly by flapping our arms around. Well, we can, by reducing our economic activity to something close to Victorian Britain. Forget the new HST (irrespective of its value). Want to take a stagecoach from London to York instead? You better had, as you soon won't be allowed to drive (unless you're rich, for whom the rules, as always, will be different). Our emissions targets are literally impossible to meet, and always were.

Economics? Of a madhouse! Just like quarrying away mountains, we won't ever be able to remove the scars on our landscape. We'll still have to build more gas, nuclear and even coal-fuelled power stations, or face electricity rationing. That's within ten years. All these 'green technologies' are doing is building an 'industry' we don't need, can't afford, and which is wasting precious resources in nonsense, literally. And when it dies, as it must, there'll even be people whining that 'jobs will be lost' so the government should keep it all going (I've heard that one already on Radio Four!).

Perhaps the biggest irony of all is that, however much we reduce the emissions here in the UK, the British 'carbon footprint' will continue to grow inexorably. We've offshored most manufacturing of consumer durables to China, who shows no sign of suddenly stopping production. We can no longer manage without cheap Chinese imports of, er, pretty much everything we use. And if we made it here... oops! Targets vanishing into the outer reaches of the solar system.

If you look at the official numbers about our own 'local' contribution to carbon emissions, the truth is damning. All this 'green' activity supposedly intends to save only a small percentage of what we emit. Yet what we emit now is less than two percent of the global amount. Daily figures on the contribution of renewables to the grid show it in last winter at around 0.1% of consumption - yup, 1/1000 of what we consume. It's hard to average a very bumpy curve, but reasonably it's around 2% of average demand - not that that helps*. As I type, today it's at a 'healthy' 0.9% (mainly wind - solar is not recorded separately). "Biomass" generation is almost three times as much.

And all of the above, all of it, is predicated on dodgy pseudo-science: the idea that releasing CO2 into the atmosphere is damaging the environment at a significantly fast level. This is not proven. It is not 'settled science' at all, and, if anything, re-examination of what little (and poor) data we have is showing no correlation at all between what we've been doing and what the climate is doing to us.

I'm not saying it's not changing. The argument, on which trillions of pounds are being spent by bureaucrats and politicians on our behalf, is about causality: is it dangerously abnormal, but more crucially, are we to blame? If the answer to either question is "no" then this money is entirely wasted, as is all the environmental damage we're doing, ironically to 'save' the environment.

There's a lot of bad stuff humans do, for sure, but if this isn't a problem our actions can fix, either because we aren't responsible (possibly the sun is), or our 'fix' is actually making things worse, then surely we shouldn't be doing it?

You can guess the conclusion I've come to.

Meanwhile, some people, of course, are getting very rich through all this. My modest proposal is that we research diligently who these people are...

... and then string 'em up on their own windmills.

Nedd Ludd.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

*although it can produce that amount, because it's not reliable (constant), all wind and solar generation has to be backed by conventional systems on standby. Unless someone implements huge-scale energy storage (and there's an environmentalist's paradox!), that situation will obtain forever.
 
Quite so. By coincidence, the Telegraph has just run this story this morning:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...lackouts-has-increased-Government-admits.html

It's not news, as the generators have warned about this for several years. We used to sell electricity to the French, incidentally, via some rather clever high-voltage DC systems across the channel. I believe now most of the flow is the other way (the French, sensibly, have a lot of nuclear).
 
One thing I don't quite understand. We seem to be faced with a choice of buying nuclear generated electricity from France, OR new nuclear build in the UK - build by EDF (i.e., French predominantly state owned business), with a big bung and a frankly unreasonable guaranteed minimum price for their electricity.

So if we must buy nuclear power from the French either way, why not let them keep the reactors in France ? Seems like a safe distance :wink:
 
Dunno - perhaps better to have the nuclear industry inside the tent pissing out.
 

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