Sharpening conspiracy!

[Beau]

For those that dont think a steel removes metal just wipe a steel down with a clean cloth and look at all the steel grey dirt that comes off on it.

 

[Jester129]

Jacob got his way.......he got you all talking the s-word. Gullible or what!! LOL

 

[Jacob]

..... If you wonder "why triangular rods, not round ones like some others ?" It's because there are a lot of serrated blade knives out there and those need to be maintained too.
.......

never heard of triangular rods and I've always sharpened my serrated knives with a steel, just like any other knife. It works perfectly and I've never had the slightest problem slicing bread etc etc.

I reckon the worlds of the sharpening enthusiasts and ordinary sharp tool users are completely separate, with nothing to learn from each other. Perhaps worst of all is to have a foot in both camps!

 

[TRITON]

Butchers steel all the time but they still have their knives sharpened regularly.

Yup.
In many instances the knives are sent off, where they are flat ground(that is ground without leaving a shoulder) then its easier to produce a slights secondary bevel.

That said, and depending on where its happening, some bigger wholesale places have a whetstone system by a company called 'Sharpenset' where you are back and forth to the sharpener, but really just producing an edge on the top inch of the boning knife

 

[Lons]

When does your book come out Jacob?

3 pages of preaching followed by another 97 repeats.

 

[Eshmiel]

Oh dear - the olde wifey tales are running amok once more!

I realise that those with, let's call it, an ideological view of sharpening will immediately denounce any counter opinion found on the interwebbery as, after all, it does contain a vast array of untruths. Still ....

When one goes searching for what we might call the Jacob-understanding, er, belief, about steels it seems impossible to find any articles, vids or anything else that says that a honing steel removes metal in the same way as a sharpening instrument such as a similar metal stick coated with diamond dust, aluminium oxide dust etc.. But articles and vids stating the opposite to Jacob-belief on the matter are legion. There are dozens on the first page of search results from asking, "How does a steel sharpen knives".

The more or less universal opinion, generally backed up by observation of the edges with a magnifier, is that a steel bends the serrated parts of a knife edge back into line rather than removing any metal.

I suppose that, like any abrasive process, frequent use of a steel ( almost at a "cut once, steel 10 times" rate) might remove metal. It seems a very laborious way to do so, though. And it produces those rather wonky caved-in blades.

https://kitchenknifeplanet.com/do-honing-steels-wear-out/

https://homediningkitchen.com/does-sharpening-steel-work/

https://www.thekitchn.com/did-you-know-this-steel-doesnt-actually-sharpen-knives-211855

https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/ct/sharpening-steel-buying-guide.htm

As Jacob remarks, diamond dust and so forth were not available in them olden days, so butchers and fish gutters used the steel as they had nowt else. Does this mean that sharpening folk should never adopt an improved method or tool? Back to the cathedral step with them!

 

[Eshmiel]

When does your book come out Jacob?

3 pages of preaching followed by another 97 repeats.

Book? Not just a book but a veritable bible! Will it have an old and a new testament? Will there be centuries of analysis and comment attempting to reconcile the two? It'll provide entertainment - and even careers - for many, many down the years.

 

[Sideways]

I suspect it's horses for courses.
If you don't spend much on a knife or blade then you usually get average steel. Nothing wrong with that. It's a value proposition and they are perfectly good for the majority of uses.
If you decide to spend more, then knives are a place where folk get interested in exotic steels and the sharpening challenges just follow from that. A blade with a Hitachi ZDP-189 edge (rockwell 67) is harder than your kitchen steel so you do end up needing something else.

Off the back of this thread, I'll be trying the kitchen steel on the opinel. Horses for courses

 

[Sideways]

PS, some steels are smooth, some are grooved. A smooth steel can't (really) be doing anything but realigning an edge. A grooved steel if it's aggressive enough most likely does remove metal as it also realigns the edge. It will just be acting as a scraper down the blade edge. No big deal.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Book? Not just a book but a veritable bible! Will it have an old and a new testament? Will there be centuries of analysis and comment attempting to reconcile the two? It'll provide entertainment - and even careers - for many, many down the years.

No, there'll be no New Testament.

 

[Jacob]

.....

The more or less universal opinion, generally backed up by observation of the edges with a magnifier, is that a steel bends the serrated parts of a knife edge back into line rather than removing any metal...

Modern sharpening theory again. It's nearly all nonsense. I could do a demo to show the swarf on a clean cloth but I can't be bothered!

I suppose that, like any abrasive process, frequent use of a steel ( almost at a "cut once, steel 10 times" rate) might remove metal. It seems a very laborious way to do so, though.

You are being brain washed again!
Nonsense. 5 seconds with a steel every now and then. So brief you'd hardly notice

And it produces those rather wonky caved-in blades.

Can do after using the same knife and steel for 40 years or so, but still cuts just as well.

......

Didn't bother reading the links, there is too much of this stuff!

As Jacob remarks, diamond dust and so forth were not available in them olden days, so butchers and fish gutters used the steel as they had nowt else. Does this mean that sharpening folk should never adopt an improved method or tool?

Certainly buy a better tool if you want to, just don't be put off the simple ways or talked into doubting your own ability.

Back to the cathedral step with them!

Back to oil stone for woodwork and knives too if in need of serious remedial work. But for daily routine just the steel for a knife.
This just cropped up on FB! https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbes-personal-shopper/article/best-knife-sharpener/
More nonsense! Talks of the "difficulty" of sharpening a serrated blade. They are in fact about the easiest thing to sharpen, with a steel, just a few quick strokes.

 

[mudman]

Modern sharpening theory again. It's nearly all nonsense. I could do a demo to show the swarf on a clean cloth but I can't be bothered!

*Snip

I just won my bet with myself on what Jacob's next post on this thread would say.
I got it almost perfectly right but don't let on to me that, as I bet myself a bacon butty and I'm now looking forward to it.

 

[Jacob]

Book? Not just a book but a veritable bible! Will it have an old and a new testament? Will there be centuries of analysis and comment attempting to reconcile the two? It'll provide entertainment - and even careers - for many, many down the years.

No there isn't that much to say. It's the modern sharpeners who make an industry out of misinformation!
PS Just checked out one of the dubious links https://kitchenknifeplanet.com/do-honing-steels-wear-out/
Hilariously silly - it says:
"They are commonly referred to as sharpening steels, but the fact is that honing steels do not sharpen your knife."
I've been sharpening knives with one for years! Gave the bread knife a couple of strokes this morning. Sharpened my Opinel the other day. What are these lunatics on about?

 

[mudman]

Oh dear - the olde wifey tales are running amok once more!

I realise that those with, let's call it, an ideological view of sharpening will immediately denounce any counter opinion found on the interwebbery as, after all, it does contain a vast array of untruths. Still ....

When one goes searching for what we might call the Jacob-understanding, er, belief, about steels it seems impossible to find any articles, vids or anything else that says that a honing steel removes metal in the same way as a sharpening instrument such as a similar metal stick coated with diamond dust, aluminium oxide dust etc.. But articles and vids stating the opposite to Jacob-belief on the matter are legion. There are dozens on the first page of search results from asking, "How does a steel sharpen knives".

The more or less universal opinion, generally backed up by observation of the edges with a magnifier, is that a steel bends the serrated parts of a knife edge back into line rather than removing any metal.

I suppose that, like any abrasive process, frequent use of a steel ( almost at a "cut once, steel 10 times" rate) might remove metal. It seems a very laborious way to do so, though. And it produces those rather wonky caved-in blades.

https://kitchenknifeplanet.com/do-honing-steels-wear-out/

https://homediningkitchen.com/does-sharpening-steel-work/

https://www.thekitchn.com/did-you-know-this-steel-doesnt-actually-sharpen-knives-211855

https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/ct/sharpening-steel-buying-guide.htm

As Jacob remarks, diamond dust and so forth were not available in them olden days, so butchers and fish gutters used the steel as they had nowt else. Does this mean that sharpening folk should never adopt an improved method or tool? Back to the cathedral step with them!

This was my understanding too and I'd seen the evidence posted before to back this up. I don't doubt that there is some abrasive action of rubbing a steel edge on another bit of steel but the main action is the reforming of the edge. However, I do wonder if the two actions combine to produce a edge that can gut fish and slice squashy tomatoes. If the edges of a knife blade is serrated at the micro scale, then using a steel will realign the 'teeth' (for want of a better word) and also abrade the sides to produce a better edge. It is interesting for those that get interested in the reason for things working but it doesn't really matter if it works
By the way, part of my bet with myself was that your links would be ignored by the person you were aiming them at. We can't be reading stuff that might shake the foundations of personal bias and dogma after all can we? Happily I was right and my bacon is happily sizzling away now as a result.
Edited to add that you can imagine my shock to post this and to then see that a link has been followed. I may have to forgo the brown sauce as penance.

 

[Jacob]

This was my understanding too and I'd seen the evidence posted before to back this up. I don't doubt that there is some abrasive action of rubbing a steel edge on another bit of steel but the main action is the reforming of the edge.

I've never had a deformed edge. It's an abrasive action. Why do you believe this weird stuff? Where/what is your evidence?

 

[mudman]

I've never had a deformed edge. It's an abrasive action. Why do you believe this weird stuff? Where/what is your evidence?

I should hope you haven't. You'd think there would a society to support people with such terrible afflictions.
But who has accused you of the terrible affliction of Edge Deformation Syndrome? I'm sure some here could have a quiet word in their shell-like.
Although maybe it is Edge Defamation. Now that would make more sense.

 

[Jacob]

Just read another one https://homediningkitchen.com/does-sharpening-steel-work/
It asks "Sharpening Steel: Does It Really Work?".
Burbles on for pages asks the same stupid question, "does sharpening steel truly work?"
I can assure them that, without a doubt, the answer is: yes, a sharpening steel does truly work.
I know this because I've just truly sharpened another knife with one!
It's not rocket science.

PS just read this one https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/ct/sharpening-steel-buying-guide.htm
It says "You don't use a honing steel to sharpen your knives. It will, after all, not remove any material."
er - it's simply not true! Where does all this gibberish come from? Why do people believe it?

 

[Eshmiel]

Just read another one https://homediningkitchen.com/does-sharpening-steel-work/
It asks "Sharpening Steel: Does It Really Work?".
Burbles on for pages asks the same stupid question, "does sharpening steel truly work?"
I can assure them that, without a doubt, the answer is: yes, a sharpening steel does truly work.
I know this because I've just truly sharpened another knife with one!
It's not rocket science.

PS just read this one https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/ct/sharpening-steel-buying-guide.htm
It says "You don't use a honing steel to sharpen your knives. It will, after all, not remove any material."
er - it's simply not true! Where does all this gibberish come from? Why do people believe it?

Perhaps your confusion is with the nomenclature - particularly the meanings of "sharpen", "hone" and surrounding terminology.

The articles are saying that a steel hone doesn't sharpen in the sense of removing metal (although no doubt it will if you rub it on the knife for long enough and often enough) but rather it makes the edge once more keen by performing one of the effects of honing, which is to straighten bent-over parts of the edge at the micro-level.

Many of these articles reference the visual evidence of this in the form of microscope and other views showing the before and after - the bent-edges of various kinds and the straightened bends after application of the steel. This makes the knife sharper in one sense (it cuts better) but not in the sense of sharpened by removing metal to make a new aris.

*************
So, no need to get ideological about it really. If you can use a steel to hone your knife back to keen-enough, of ye go with your 100 strokes of yer wee sword every 5 minutes. Personally I prefer using a wood or MDF hone coated with honing goo, at far greater intervals. This seems to both straighten edge-bends and remove the worst edge-rags & teeny nicks to make not just a once-more-keen edge but a more resilient edge - one not just bend back into a toothy semblance of straight & pointy.

**********
Another issue you may have is that you want to reduce diverse and often complex differences to one single thing. But a lot can be learnt that's of utility when one looks closely at something. Knowing the detail of what's happening at the edge can make it easier to select the right process for improving it. There's more than one process for more than one edge condition and edge-material, like it or not. (No, I know you don't like it).

Adamantine Certainty - a curse on the human mind and all its doings in the world as a result.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

It asks "Sharpening Steel: Does It Really Work?".
Burbles on for pages asks the same stupid question, "does sharpening steel truly work?"
er - it's simply not true! Where does all this gibberish come from? Why do people believe it?

Jacob old buddy, I don't think you take the subject of sharpening seriously enough, whether it be the sharpening of knives, chisels, plane irons, etc and I do wish you could show you've made a real effort to gather all the best information and then communicate it to us. You always seem to be so muddled and wishy-washy about the topic and giving us all so little clear guidance, and it's so confusing.

(Darn. I've just bitten my tongue at about its mid-length with my molars!) Slainte.

 

[--Tom--]

Dickoron (seen by many as the industry standard) do three grades
Classic
Micro
Polish

https://www.dick.de/messer/en/sharpening/dickoron-family

Classic and micro are serrated - so act like a file, police is smooth so acts like a burnisher.

The internet is full of people who confuse serrated steels and smooth steels.

We know both work in different ways from sharpening cabinet scrapers.

Though of course many will say don’t bother with a burnisher and instead use a screwdriver or a chisel or some other contraption.

We also know once steel gets hard like in a chisel we don’t use a file to sharpen it, we use abrasive. Same happens with knives - some like a softer metal as it means they can steel it. Also like chisels some people like a harder metal as it keeps an edge longer.