Sharpening conspiracy!

[Sideways]

Well I'll give Jacob points for a helpful suggestion.
I never had a lot of time for the opinels. 12c27 stainless always felt soft and a bit gummy to me and the ceramic sharpeners are way too slow on it, so ours lies around and gets used as a letter opener.

Here's the evidence of 5 minutes with the kitchen steel.

Std Opinel

Totally blunt - see all the reflection from the "edge"

Kitchen steel - textured type. Asian brand but the steel says made in France

Sharpened - you can see the filings

As rough an edge as all hell but it'd still cut you to the bone. A few more swipes around the tip after this and it was perfectly good for the garden.

This method absolutely removes metal - I wiped the steel down before I started so this is straight off the edge.

Filings - without a doubt. The steel is acting as a scraper down the edge and removing metal just the way any sharp 90 degree edge will scrape on a wood lathe. Nothing to do with burrs like a cabinet scraper.

Will this make me swap the CPMS30V particle metallury steel blade in my pocket for an Opinel ?
Not a chance. But the Opinel might get promoted from letter opener to gardening implement

 

[Eshmiel]

Interesting!

So, some serrated steels are hard enough to scrape some metals off a knife edge. That does suggest that they can achieve a sharpening effect of sorts on a metal that's presumably softer than the metal of the steel. The knife is being filed. If the knife metal is harder than that of the steel, it may be that the grey stuff on the rag and the particles clinging to the edge are from the steel not the knife. How to tell?

Still, lets assume that the steel is scraping metal off the knife. The question then is: what quality of edge is being produced? Your experiments seem to show that its producing "an edge as rough as hell". Is this edge suitable for anything other than the garden? Is it suitable even for that, as the roughness probably means that its going to break down reet quick when used to cut (or rather, saw) things. The general description of "sharpening" with a steel does seem to include the phrase "often".

But it does seem that a steel with those ultra-fine serrations is, to all intents and purposes, a round file beyond the grade "second cut". Useful, then, for not just bending wonky edges back to straight but also filing off the broken bits of wonk. But how useful is that grade of edge? I suppose, useful enough for some easy-to-cut-it purposes such as slicing tomatoes or fish bellies; and if you don't mind reducing your knife blade to a concave sliver in no time by the need for constant refiling.

We need a microscope. We need Mr David Weaver esq., with an experimental procedure.

 

[paulrbarnard]

Interesting!

So, some serrated steels are hard enough to scrape some metals off a knife edge. That does suggest that they can achieve a sharpening effect of sorts on a metal that's presumably softer than the metal of the steel. The knife is being filed. If the knife metal is harder than that of the steel, it may be that the grey stuff on the rag and the particles clinging to the edge are from the steel not the knife. How to tell?

Still, lets assume that the steel is scraping metal off the knife. The question then is: what quality of edge is being produced? Your experiments seem to show that its producing "an edge as rough as hell". Is this edge suitable for anything other than the garden? Is it suitable even for that, as the roughness probably means that its going to break down reet quick when used to cut (or rather, saw) things. The general description of "sharpening" with a steel does seem to include the phrase "often".

But it does seem that a steel with those ultra-fine serrations is, to all intents and purposes, a round file beyond the grade "second cut". Useful, then, for not just bending wonky edges back to straight but also filing off the broken bits of wonk. But how useful is that grade of edge? I suppose, useful enough for some easy-to-cut-it purposes such as slicing tomatoes or fish bellies; and if you don't mind reducing your knife blade to a concave sliver in no time by the need for constant refiling.

We need a microscope. We need Mr David Weaver esq., with an experimental procedure.

I think you’ll find a serrated bit of steel is called a file. A common use of a file is to remove metal…

 

[Jacob]

........

Here's the evidence of 5 minutes with the kitchen steel.

5 minutes seems long. I'd do mine in nearer to 5 seconds. The secret is "a little and often".

......
As rough an edge as all hell but it'd still cut you to the bone........

Well done, you are getting the point (no pun intended).
Is "cutting to the bone" not good enough? Would you expect to be able to cut through the bone?
Would it cut better to the bone with a smoother edge?
I sharpened mine to peel an orange. Softer things often need a very sharp edge. It'd be good for slicing tomatoes.
I think you have proved my point.
Thanks for that.
Helpful hint - don't bother with microscopes, it's simpler than you think - just ask yourself whether or not the blade will cut.
There was a fashion for posting up meaningless magnified photos of sharp edges but it seems to have passed.

 

[Jacob]

Interesting!

So, some serrated steels are hard enough to scrape some metals off a knife edge. That does suggest that they can achieve a sharpening effect of sorts on a metal that's presumably softer than the metal of the steel. The knife is being filed. If the knife metal is harder than that of the steel, it may be that the grey stuff on the rag and the particles clinging to the edge are from the steel not the knife. How to tell?

Who f*****g cares if the knife ends up sharp.

Still, lets assume that the steel is scraping metal off the knife. The question then is: what quality of edge is being produced?

He said it would "cut to the bone". Good enough for me. In fact my Opinel often comes in handy as a steak knife. Haven't got any actual steak knives - perhaps not a good idea to sharpen up a normal table knives.

 

[bbtex]

Who f*****g cares if the knife ends up sharp.

I think the point is that the knife is sharp after whatever it is you do to it so I'd ******* care.

 

[Inspector]

"In fact my Opinel often comes in handy as a steak knife. Haven't got any actual steak knives"

Or learn how to cook poor cuts of meat so they are tender and don't need a steak knife to hack through them.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

I think the point is that the knife is sharp after whatever it is you do to it so I'd ******* care.

Only a few seconds to freshen it up again, with a steel.

 

[bbtex]

Only a few seconds to freshen it up again, with a steel.

The point, that you seem to have missed, is that the lack of punctuation, even if our ancestors did perfectly well without it, gives your sentence a meaning that you obviously didn't intend.

 

[JSW]

The point, that you seem to have missed, is that the lack of punctuation, even if our ancestors did perfectly well without it, gives your sentence a meaning that you obviously didn't intend.

Makes perfect sense to me, or is this just another "let's have a go at Jacob" dig?

Cheers @Sideways, nice to see a bit of time spent actually using a steel (and actually learning something) instead of all the nit-picking whether it abrades, bends dulls or whatever

 

[AJB Temple]

My original steel from 30 odd years ago is a Gustav Emil Ern and used to be fine on my German knives but a bit brutal. Still have it and still works. Had an oval diamond "steel" and that was my go to for a while, though they wear faster than the knives. Had a white ceramic that was excellent but stolen from my knife roll and now have a blue ceramic which I hate as it's too course. Everything works, including a brick - its just a matter of preference. I do have one knife that whatever I do with it I can never get it properly sharp: it's a Puma folding pocket knife made in Solingen. 30 years old or so.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I had a beautiful Gustav Emil Ern sheath knife about 50 years ago that got stolen. I could never get a decent edge on Victorinox Swiss Army knives.

 

[bbtex]

Makes perfect sense to me, or is this just another "let's have a go at Jacob" dig?

It's a subtle point, but as written, it isn't very precise and can result in misinterpretation of the intended meaning. It could be interpreted as him saying that he doesn't care if it ends up sharp which implies that he also wouldn't care too much about it having a state of bluntness. Now if it was written, "Who ******* cares? So long as the knife ends up sharp." Then we could see that he doesn't care overly much about how it was achieved, only that the knife was sharp at the end of it.

But I'm very glad that your obvious closeness to Jacob allows you to divine his meaning even if not obvious to everyone else.