Save the dying arts....

[jimi43]

Now guys and gals...can we possibly allow this to happen!?

BBC ARTICLE: Last craftsmen fight to save their trades

I think we should RISE UP....walk to Jarrow or something....

:wink:

Jim

 

[lurker]

Lets face it Robin Wood ain't earning a living out of turning.

Without his "school" & demos & the occasional hertitage job I can't see how it pays (or is likely to pay).
Its a dead trade

Most of these old skills now rely on old gits like us who have an interest & an alternative source of income.

I'm quite skilled at hedgelaying and not bad at dry stone walling but can make more regular money doing other stuff with my "modern" skills.
I tried these "crafts" for a few years but could not compete with the early retireees that undercut me. And the a-hole customers who thought it OK not to bother paying.

 

[frugal]

I have one of his bowls as Robin Wood sells at some of the reenacter markets. However his bowls cost twice as much as the machine turned ones and three to four times as much as the imported ones. So only the people who are trying to be as authentic as possible every buy them.

It is a really nice bowl, and I can get a huge helping of stew into it

 

[woodsworth]

I don't think they even do enough for small business period. I have struggled for three years and will struggle for a couple more before i will even be in a position to hire an apprentice. But then i'm the kind that doesn't want to go into debt to just be able to provide full services. I only do what i can and half the time i'm pushing the limits, but that does promote growth.

The idea of hiring someone to do something that perhaps is outdated just for nostalgic reasons is the wrong use for resources in my opinion. Most things like that survive because some half mad person has put their life into it, much like the fella doing the bowls. What difference does it make if it was made on a foot treadle lathe or a modern lathe? For that matter Shefeild steel scissors verses the modern ones we commonly see? Why hasn't he gotten into something like hairdresser scissors which are prohibitively expensive? If there isn't money in that i'll eat my hat. The barrel maker, well we know what the barrels are made for and as long as we drink wine and whiskey's etc. he will have work, bur he to may have to modernize. Those that don't die simple as that.

Everyone is suffering right now and our young are suffering because of it, but everything runs in cycles. Anyone who didn't see this cycle coming had their heads in a cloud. Many cycles have come and gone and the smart young get themselves in programs to educate themselves during these slumps so that when the slump has ended they will be ready for work. The businesses who do such outdated things, if they didn't plan for the recession they will die, just as other businesses who borrowed to much or expanded inappropriately also die.

We win by being able to buy their equipment at reduced rates because of it. Should there be more appropriate apprenticeship schemes? Yes!!! Not just to save dying trades but to save the trades full stop. If the government is willing to pay a child to go to school to get them off the unemployment stats why not introduce schemes that actually put them to work learning on the job. Half the time the education they take doesn't even apply to the real world yet billions are spent on it to keep colleges and universities going. I think at the cost of small business.

 

[Digit]

The problem is as it always was, an apprentice is useless for other then tea making at first.
That is why traditionally these crafts charged to train apprentices.

Roy.

 

[big soft moose]

The problem is as it always was, an apprentice is useless for other then tea making at first.
.

in my experience work experience and aprentice are crap for that too - you get much better results with a teabag :lol:

 

[Digit]

:lol: :lol:

Roy.

 

[wizer]

I wish I had the ambition to do something interesting when I left school. Back then I just wanted to earn money and was happy to take the first job that come along (retail). When I finally realised that retail was never going to pay me the sort of money I wanted, I fell into IT. Which is probably the most uninspiring job on the planet, unless you're into certain development areas (like google). Apprenticeships at that time (mid 90's) really didn't exist, not in our area anyway. The only trade that I can think of is mechanics and I don't do grease

As much as I love turning, I've no desire to do it on a pole lathe. That's just barmy! Is it important to keep that trade alive? I don't know, probably not. Scissor making and barrel making seems much more important to keep alive and keep in Britain. In fact if I was fitter, I'd think about pursuing it. After the recent threads about Japanese and American kitchen knife making, there must be a market for very good British knives, scissors, etc. As lurker says, there are plenty of hobby turners out there doing it for the love. But I doubt there are any scissor makers. So when that company dies, so does the trade. I can see the possibility of hobby barrel makers or those that do it to supplement income. It really depends on how competitive they can place themselves in the market and who their market is.

 

[big soft moose]

The problem is as it always was, an apprentice is useless for other then tea making at first.
.

in my experience work experience and aprentice are crap for that too - you get much better results with a teabag :lol:

although that said i have met several that i would happily imerse in boiling water and leave to stew

 

[Corset]

There is a very simple solution to the lack of skills. I let a lot of student bed spaces in my job as a letting agent and it is clear that many students are doing Mickey Mouse courses at Uni. They are simply there because they want to do what their friends are doing etc.
So put the courses at UNI for the trade etc and have a more in depth course. Ie call it applied wood engineering management (or joinery). Or applied electrical engineering etc. This would attract many people whom end up in these fields anyway later. They would have some skills, possibly including tea making and therefore help reinvigorate our ageing skilled workers.
That way they get their time to have fun and rack up a big debt to focus their minds when they leave.
I know the debt focussed my mind so I didn't sit on my backside. On the other hand I ended up as an estate agent so what do I know,.
Owen

 

[jimi43]

I think that the government has been forced to make cuts and so scissors are therefore the first to go.....(groan!)

Barrel makers are considered a firkin nuisance (louder groan) and willow weavers are just hedging their bets...(ok ok ENOUGH!!!)

Seriously...I think two things that have destroyed our Empire by slowly disappearing and they are apprenticeships and grandfathers.

I would restore both...and start conscription...learn a trade...no option.

The benefit will be a distinct drop in juvenile delinquency!

8)

Jim

 

[dannykaye]

that article seems a bit far fetched there are, for example, several places that have pole lathe turning schools. I would want to see some references to serious surveys not just "Fred says his craft is dieing"

We need better apprentice schemes but this is not the way to get them.

 

[nanscombe]

When I was at school I was reasonably lucky as I went to a school (just outside Dartford) where we did woodwork, metalwork and technical drawing and, before you ask, that was the late 70's early 80's.

The unfortunate thing was that I wasn't particularly good at it and wasn't so interested at the time and besides the new-fangled computers were much more fun, for writing your own programs in BASIC anyway.

Thirty years later, after lagging waaaay behind in marketable computer skills I have come to find little satisfaction in it. You work for hours (or days), a glitch in the power supply or the hard drive fails and (unless you save / backup regularly) it's gone.

When showing off what you have written, you're limited to the computer screen and people have to be interested in what you have done.

With woodwork, however, there is a physical product something you can touch that isn't going to suddenly disappear without trace. Others can see, touch and possibly appreciate it even if they don't understand how it was made.

The downside is that people now seem to be content with cheap, imported, mass produced items and either don't want, or can't afford, to pay for something hand crafted and possibly unique.

 

[woodsworth]

After the recent threads about Japanese and American kitchen knife making, there must be a market for very good British knives, scissors, etc.

I think the difference is modernization. You can bet when times were good they did not put money into modernization as this is Britain, we do things a certain way... Now there are companies that make the things with a way higher standard, higher value, and higher profit margins in other countries.

The fall of industry is not a world wide phenomenon, so one has to look at what others are doing ie, Japan and America and find out what we are doing wrong. From an outsiders point of view it is easy to spot. But from the point of view of people who want it to be the way it used to be it would be difficult to see. After world war 2 Japan learned from American's how to turn their Economy around and they did just that, now they probably own a third of the world.

People worry about the little things and politicians give in because it is a cheap way to keep people happy and docile. I guarantee you'll see the government make some vague statement on some changes in the apprenticeship programs and everyone will just take a back seat and wait. It seems to be a common theme here in politics. I think they must laugh their a$$'s off behind closed doors. Just like fencing grants and sheep subsidies, we pretend we have industries and such but we have nothing, look around, what do we export? very little compared to "the good ol days" when trade was trades and everyone wanted a piece of it. Everyone had a job and worked etc...

What this country needs is a good revolution to shake it up, wake it up, and put us on a real track of growth and prosperity.

 

[frugal]

The barrel maker, well we know what the barrels are made for and as long as we drink wine and whiskey's etc. he will have work, bur he to may have to modernize.

Except that a lot of the time now "oak matured" means there were some pieces of oak that were thrown into the aluminium barrel.

 

[woodbloke]

What this country needs is a good revolution to shake it up, wake it up, and put us on a real track of growth and prosperity.

Something like that happened in France in 1783. It turned out to be fairly unpleasant for a number of folks and ushered in the rise of Bonaparte with all the ensuing misery. I don't think so - Rob

 

[pete-c]

Hi guys,

well hopefully i can turn the old trade of barrel making around and i'm not firkin about lol!!! I'm sick of seeing over priced rubbish for sale but there only over priced because of the middle man and sellers high mark up.
I can cut all that out and pocket the lot myself.

Going back into it after 12 yrs out but thankfully i was the creative one and can put my hand to anything and not just a water tight cask, still got all my old tools and the knowledge.

I'll be attending the woodfest in st asaph n,wales for my 1st outing/demo to get myself established and meet other tradesmen. Some of you may say i'm mad but there is a good call for cooper made items from supplying micro breweries, cider makers, garden water features, furnature,buckets the list goes on.

I'm in the early stages of setting this up but things are coming together slowly.

 

[Digit]

Good luck Pete, keep us informed.

Roy.

 

[ByronBlack]

Old crafts die for a reason. I think they should be left to die, as a race we should always be looking to improve, to move forward. These are fine for hobbies or for someone rich enough that'll allow them to do it sans income, but I certainly wouldn't advocate any governmental intervention to save an old craft when there are better and more cost effective means of achieving whichever product/service is being offered.

People need to realise we live in a global economy, and we all compete, communicate and deal in a world wide sense, and that will only become more and more the norm. The sooner everyone realises this and tailors there skills to their geographic environment the better.

It's small minded IMO to want to protect everything at the cost of a taxpayer because a particular craft is now redundant due to modern efficiencies. It's called evolution, and we should embrace it. (This is in regards to commerce, I'm all for learning traditional crafts as hobbies as it keeps up connected to what we can do, and how to learn).

 

[jimi43]

BB...with the greatest respect...that is a load of old Codds Wallop....

If the crap that is coming out today is progress then I hold no hope for humanity or "civilisation".

History has shown us that the old techniques which were developed very slowly and refined to efficiency and effectiveness are often later emulated in modern design.

Losing skills that made them progress naturally is very dangerous and myopic IMHO.

Without the knowledge of weaving we wouldn't have carbon fibre...

Without the knowledge of ceramics we wouldn't have the Space Shuttle...

Without Coopers....we wouldn't have had the greatest heavyweight boxer in the world!!



Jim