Save the dying arts....
- Thread starter jimi43
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jimi43
Established Member
I think these views miss the point that the heritage that we have in England is unique and thankfully NOT polluted by the likes of IKEA and such cheap detritus....
I found this quote which made me smile.....
You'd be excused for thinking this was straight out of the WI Newsletter of Chipping Sodbury or some little Marpleian village....but no...
It is extracted from an educated and profound study in TIRANA, ALBANIA!
It is a measurable fact that most foreign tourists flock to London...and then on to Bath and Stratford....NOT to visit out of town Scandinavian monstrosities....but to see our Tudor architecture. To marvel at our preservation policies and to walk around in eye-pleasing comfort on our cobbled streets.
We've already sold our great engineering production down the river to cheap imports...we haven't protected our skill base as the likes of Germany and others have done....
Would you have us further waste the culture that is there for ALL to enjoy and which brings in a vast amount of foreign currency to our shores?
Jim
I found this quote which made me smile.....
You'd be excused for thinking this was straight out of the WI Newsletter of Chipping Sodbury or some little Marpleian village....but no...
It is extracted from an educated and profound study in TIRANA, ALBANIA!
It is a measurable fact that most foreign tourists flock to London...and then on to Bath and Stratford....NOT to visit out of town Scandinavian monstrosities....but to see our Tudor architecture. To marvel at our preservation policies and to walk around in eye-pleasing comfort on our cobbled streets.
We've already sold our great engineering production down the river to cheap imports...we haven't protected our skill base as the likes of Germany and others have done....
Would you have us further waste the culture that is there for ALL to enjoy and which brings in a vast amount of foreign currency to our shores?
Jim
Some years ago part of York Minster was damaged by fire, including the world famous Rose Window. The restoration work was only possible because the ancient crafts have been kept alive.
Ok, you may not give a damn about the building, but in excess of one million visitors a year do, to the extent that they pay £8 each to visit. Now even if every penny is used to maintain the fabric so that people can visit in a self perpetuating circle perhaps we should think of the craftsmen and women who work for a living, plus the logical assumption that many visitors will also spend money elsewhere within the city.
Tourism is worth something in the region of £15 Billion to the UK economy.
What value a Mason?
Roy.
Ok, you may not give a damn about the building, but in excess of one million visitors a year do, to the extent that they pay £8 each to visit. Now even if every penny is used to maintain the fabric so that people can visit in a self perpetuating circle perhaps we should think of the craftsmen and women who work for a living, plus the logical assumption that many visitors will also spend money elsewhere within the city.
Tourism is worth something in the region of £15 Billion to the UK economy.
What value a Mason?
Roy.
ByronBlack
Established Member
Digit":39mxe6jh said:
You are misunderstanding the argument. In that instance clearly the craft Is not dead and pays for itself. Masonry is hardly a dead craft. :roll:
I'm arguing that pointless crafts that are dead and replaceable should not be propped up by the tax payer. I want the choice of supporting these crafts, not forced to by government intervention.
jimi43
Established Member
ByronBlack":2d6kq4uo said:
List the ones you consider dying then and why you would let them die.
Jim
ByronBlack
Established Member
Jim, I've clearly stated the conditions in which I would let a craft die numerous times throughout the discussion.
ByronBlack
Established Member
Digit":1n9qopch said:
Some bloke making bowls with a pole lathe is one I can think of, given that is what sparked the discussion.
But BB, I think we are on different tracks here, you said ...
Roy.
... thus inferring that they are being propped up in some manner. If he is making a satisfactory living, either directly or indirectly, from a pole lathe, or a stained glass window maker is making money from the Church, let them get on with it.
Roy.
ByronBlack
Established Member
.Digit":18p27rsz said:
That is my point Roy, I'm happy for old crafts to exist as long as they pay their own way. Have I not already said that?
My reference to the pole lathe was to illustrate that if he was unable to make a living if he took on an apprentice, then his craft will die wth him, and it should be allowed to die and not propped up with tax payers money. That is the crux of the original article is it not?
I feel like I'm going round in circles on this one. My views are clear, I'll leave it that.
jimi43
Established Member
Digit":2cwpuakt said:
:wink:
BradNaylor
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I've resisted the urge to contribute to this thread until now but it's getting on my ****...
I find it an impertinence that others should suggest that my tax money should go to supporting the obsolete skills and livelihood of some misfit who decides he wants to be a pole turner, nosebag maker, wheeltapper, etc. instead of either getting a proper job or supplying a service that people are happy to pay for
Skills like this are the preserve of the enthusiast or hobbyist; good luck to anyone who wants to spend their spare time perpetuating old ways if that's what floats their boat - just don't expect me to fund it without being asked.
Any skill that has any worth will find customers for it. The example of the masons on York Minster is a good one. I was at university in York in the 70s and watched the masons at work in their yard. They were highly skilled, employed full time, and earned bloody good money. This was many years before the infamous fire. I can only assume that their skills became even more valuable then!
Ultimately, the market decides everything. This is exactly as it should be. Old skills become obsolete, die out, and new ones develop. It is not something to be sentimental about.
As and when the electricity runs out then there will presumably be a renewed demand for pole lathe turners. Supply and demand always find their equilibrium point.
I would extend this principle to the arts. I've no objection to people going to the opera to watch fat people warbling nonsense in Italian. I have every objection however, to the public purse subsidising it.
I find it an impertinence that others should suggest that my tax money should go to supporting the obsolete skills and livelihood of some misfit who decides he wants to be a pole turner, nosebag maker, wheeltapper, etc. instead of either getting a proper job or supplying a service that people are happy to pay for
Skills like this are the preserve of the enthusiast or hobbyist; good luck to anyone who wants to spend their spare time perpetuating old ways if that's what floats their boat - just don't expect me to fund it without being asked.
Any skill that has any worth will find customers for it. The example of the masons on York Minster is a good one. I was at university in York in the 70s and watched the masons at work in their yard. They were highly skilled, employed full time, and earned bloody good money. This was many years before the infamous fire. I can only assume that their skills became even more valuable then!
Ultimately, the market decides everything. This is exactly as it should be. Old skills become obsolete, die out, and new ones develop. It is not something to be sentimental about.
As and when the electricity runs out then there will presumably be a renewed demand for pole lathe turners. Supply and demand always find their equilibrium point.
I would extend this principle to the arts. I've no objection to people going to the opera to watch fat people warbling nonsense in Italian. I have every objection however, to the public purse subsidising it.
jeffinfrance
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look what happens when we "let the market decide"
boom, bust, recession, depression, outsourcing, poor quality, unemployment, poverty, crime.....i could go on.
personally i would be much happeir funding a college of the dying arts than having a new trident missile fleet (to protect us against what exactly?). our tax money is used to line the pockets of the already too rich.
one vote here for spending it on something beneficial to future generations.
boom, bust, recession, depression, outsourcing, poor quality, unemployment, poverty, crime.....i could go on.
personally i would be much happeir funding a college of the dying arts than having a new trident missile fleet (to protect us against what exactly?). our tax money is used to line the pockets of the already too rich.
one vote here for spending it on something beneficial to future generations.
wobblycogs
Established Member
When has the market not decided what survives? As far as I'm aware there has never been a rose tinted point in history where old skills were kept alive and progress was stopped. If anything market forces killing off old skills were stronger as there was less spare wealth to spend on nostalgia.
Boom and bust isn't a new phenomenon it's been happening for centuries at least (look up Tulip mania) and was probably happening on a more localized scale before then.
Outsourcing is not evil, without it many companies couldn't survive as they couldn't afford to keep the required skills in house and it allows them to focus on their core business. In fact some outsourcing has become so ubiquitous (delivery of post and parcels for example) we don't even see it as such anymore.
As for poverty you have to be joking, we have never had it so good. Go back just 100 years and you could easily find eight people living in a two bedroom house with no running water and a toilet at the end of the street.
I wouldn't knock what we have as I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't want to go back to what it was really like.
Boom and bust isn't a new phenomenon it's been happening for centuries at least (look up Tulip mania) and was probably happening on a more localized scale before then.
Outsourcing is not evil, without it many companies couldn't survive as they couldn't afford to keep the required skills in house and it allows them to focus on their core business. In fact some outsourcing has become so ubiquitous (delivery of post and parcels for example) we don't even see it as such anymore.
As for poverty you have to be joking, we have never had it so good. Go back just 100 years and you could easily find eight people living in a two bedroom house with no running water and a toilet at the end of the street.
I wouldn't knock what we have as I'm pretty sure most of us wouldn't want to go back to what it was really like.
My father was born in 1902, his father deserted the family when he was a child, his mother died when he was 13, a heart attack whilst carrying bags of coal on her back!
My father walked the length and breadth of this country with his boots around his neck so as to look smart when applying for a job!
Only fools believe in 'the good old days!'
None the less, many have now lost the incentive to do anything with their lives.
No, the good old days weren't that good unless you were wealthy, but maybe we have gone too far the other way.
Roy.
wobblycogs
Established Member
I think the problem is that the rich and powerful write the history books and history books get written about the rich and powerful. Unless you go digging it's hard to find out what life was like for the common man.
I think even re-enactments of times gone by help perpetuate the myth that it was some kind of golden age. The people putting on the show are clean, fit, healthy and well fed but the reality was probably the complete opposite.
I suspect that the problem is that one generation is enough to forget what it was really like and most people don't read about (social) history.
I think even re-enactments of times gone by help perpetuate the myth that it was some kind of golden age. The people putting on the show are clean, fit, healthy and well fed but the reality was probably the complete opposite.
I suspect that the problem is that one generation is enough to forget what it was really like and most people don't read about (social) history.
dannykaye
Established Member
as far as apprentiships are concerned a couple of points
1) what is the difference in the country supporting them and a degree in, say, fine art, or psychology or mathematics?
2) if the pole turner makes a living then it is reasonable to expect that an apprentice would eventually make a living so supporting one as education is reasonable
3) such support is needed to produce the skilled people (be it mathematicians or pole turners) that will make us a complete society in the future
we should support the skills and crafts in this way because when we don't we loose valuable skills, just look at the machining industry that we no longer have
1) what is the difference in the country supporting them and a degree in, say, fine art, or psychology or mathematics?
2) if the pole turner makes a living then it is reasonable to expect that an apprentice would eventually make a living so supporting one as education is reasonable
3) such support is needed to produce the skilled people (be it mathematicians or pole turners) that will make us a complete society in the future
we should support the skills and crafts in this way because when we don't we loose valuable skills, just look at the machining industry that we no longer have
dannykaye
Established Member
Somebody said that in the past most people were nasty, short and brutish and so were their lives. I really wouldn't want to go back to the times before, say, penicillin but I think we need to curb the rampant capitalism we have now so that we have "time to stand and stare"
wobblycogs
Established Member
Is capitalism really more rampant today than in the past? It's certainly on a larger scale (e.g. world wide trading) now than it's ever been but I'm don't think it's any more aggressive, in fact if anything I think it's less aggressive because as there are stronger legal frameworks in which it has to operate.
From a workers point of view it's less rampant due to legislation like the working time directives. I'm sure the child workers in the dark satanic mills would have loved our 40 hour weeks.
capitalism as a recognized concept might be quite new but the basic ideas behind it have driven economies for hundreds if not thousands of years.
From a workers point of view it's less rampant due to legislation like the working time directives. I'm sure the child workers in the dark satanic mills would have loved our 40 hour weeks.
capitalism as a recognized concept might be quite new but the basic ideas behind it have driven economies for hundreds if not thousands of years.
