Save the dying arts....
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ByronBlack
Established Member
Jim,
You have proven my point better than I could have. Weaving leading to carbon fibre; if we were to stick in the past lipke you are advocating then we wouldn't have developed carbon fibre, we would still be weaving.
I'm not advocating we forget these crafts, I clearly did not say that, what I am saying is that we shouldn't preserve them in a commercial sense if they are no longer viable. They should be allowed to die into the hands of enthusiasts, historians and hobbysists.
That in all due respect is cods wallop. Would you call this crap:
You have proven my point better than I could have. Weaving leading to carbon fibre; if we were to stick in the past lipke you are advocating then we wouldn't have developed carbon fibre, we would still be weaving.
I'm not advocating we forget these crafts, I clearly did not say that, what I am saying is that we shouldn't preserve them in a commercial sense if they are no longer viable. They should be allowed to die into the hands of enthusiasts, historians and hobbysists.
That in all due respect is cods wallop. Would you call this crap:
ByronBlack
Established Member
Digit":14ui1cu3 said:
I'm just trying to illustrate the fallacy of the view that things made today are crap because they don't use some old dead technique. I could have used many many examples.
I would accept that, but there is also the corollary that it isn't automatically good, or progress, simply because it's modern.
In many cases economics have driven the changes rather than created an improved product.
Roy.
In many cases economics have driven the changes rather than created an improved product.
Roy.
ByronBlack
Established Member
Digit":2k53g61z said:
Agreed, Im not saying everything that is new is better, just that if a craft is dying because the entire world has moved on, then it's not worth trying to keep it economically vialbe for the sake of it.
Take the turner in the original article, I see nothing great about turning a bowl on a pole lathe, why is that any different to turning a bowl on a powered lathe? The product is certainly no better, and further in the article he says he is worried about taking on an apprentice because they could setup on their own and create some competition. It seems these old crafts want their industry up held and protected from competition.
ByronBlack
Established Member
Digit":1zlc7539 said:
I'm in complete agreement Roy, I myself prefer to work with solid wood and hand tools, but the point I'm making is that I shouldn't have a right to be a commercial enterprise just for the sake of using these techniques.
jeffinfrance
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byron, you need to understand that soon we will all be paying the real cost for our cheap products by being unemplyed!
we will never be able to compete with a 12 year old slave in india.
until of course all the benefit budget runs out.......the it will be you earning a pound a day to make them!
the communities that will be able to survive the coming depression/rampant hyper inflation, are those that trade locally within the community. it is essential to keep the trades going, whilst adding new ones like IT and communications.
jeff
we will never be able to compete with a 12 year old slave in india.
until of course all the benefit budget runs out.......the it will be you earning a pound a day to make them!
the communities that will be able to survive the coming depression/rampant hyper inflation, are those that trade locally within the community. it is essential to keep the trades going, whilst adding new ones like IT and communications.
jeff
Mike.C
Established Member
I would not call it progress when products now last a fraction of the time that they used to. It seems that most things are now made to last a certain length of time instead of back in the day when they were made to last.
They was a time when companies and the workers within them took pride in what they made, but now it's all down to the bottom line, money
Cheers
Mike[/i]
They was a time when companies and the workers within them took pride in what they made, but now it's all down to the bottom line, money
Cheers
Mike[/i]
ByronBlack
Established Member
jeffinfrance":hlnilk9o said:
You are right Jeff - we can't compete with a 12 year old indian slave. But I don't see your argument. Not everything we buy/use is made this way, they certainly aren't making anything above the very basic level of products - but if they weren't doing those jobs, what else would they be doing? How else are those countries supposed to survive?
I don't see bowl making on a pole lathe, or basket weaving as essential, what is essential, as that we adapt our skills and continue to innovate instead of harking back to some previous time, as a leading country in the developed world, it should be our duty to keep pushing technology, and lead with innovation, that should be where our economy is based, not some old dead craft.
Mike.C - All due respect, you cannot blanket every product as 'they don't last like they used to' Cars these days are much much better made and last a lot longer than cars 20+ years ago.
What products exactly are you referring to when you say that 'back in the day' (whatever day that was?) they were made to last as opposed to products these days?
Lie Nielsen/Vertias/Clifton planes? They are certainly better than older tools. Cars, bicycles, motobikes, electronic goods - all better made today - and that is due to modern efficiencies and innovation/technology.
The whole 'it was much better in my day' is a fallacy IMO and although romantic and nostalgic, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
jeffinfrance
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unbelievable.......what else would they be doing?????!!!!!!
they would be living rather than enduring.
all your cheap clothes, fancy trainers, saucepans, knives, toys, tools, computers....the list is endless. EVERYTHING "cheap" is produced by serfodm. the dirtiest of which is nade by children.
their land is being taken away anf their means of production privatised, they are forced to work in the factories by making life in the countryside untenable.
as we in the "educated" west are being taxed into a position where we can no longer afford to by quality, or are seduced into disposable lifestyles to continue consumption. consumer goods are exactly that......something to consume! less than 1% of annual production is still in use a year later.
yes, improvements can be made in products, but i do not agree that improvements in production are always a benefit, especially those at a cost to jobs.
products better now. i dont think so. i have the first kenwood cd player ever made.....still working after 26 years! outlasted 3 personal cd players, 2 dvd players, 2 cd drives and a dvd drive.
i am currently looking for a used car, both mechanics i have asked for advice told me to look for a well looked after 15/20 year old car if i cant afford new with a 5 year guarantee.
tools.....dont get me started. i've just shelled out over 15 000 quid on the "best" machine on the market. rubbish! i'm supposed to expect a tolerance of 4 tenths of a mm over the length of the sliding table. try fitting the same counter profiled shoulder onto both ends of profiled stile......good luck!
currently (with very few exceptions, like my ability to debate with you now), our civilisation is not moving forwards.
the first abilities to loose we don't notice. will you still think this way when you cant find someone to make a front door. or a made to measure suit?
jeff
they would be living rather than enduring.
all your cheap clothes, fancy trainers, saucepans, knives, toys, tools, computers....the list is endless. EVERYTHING "cheap" is produced by serfodm. the dirtiest of which is nade by children.
their land is being taken away anf their means of production privatised, they are forced to work in the factories by making life in the countryside untenable.
as we in the "educated" west are being taxed into a position where we can no longer afford to by quality, or are seduced into disposable lifestyles to continue consumption. consumer goods are exactly that......something to consume! less than 1% of annual production is still in use a year later.
yes, improvements can be made in products, but i do not agree that improvements in production are always a benefit, especially those at a cost to jobs.
products better now. i dont think so. i have the first kenwood cd player ever made.....still working after 26 years! outlasted 3 personal cd players, 2 dvd players, 2 cd drives and a dvd drive.
i am currently looking for a used car, both mechanics i have asked for advice told me to look for a well looked after 15/20 year old car if i cant afford new with a 5 year guarantee.
tools.....dont get me started. i've just shelled out over 15 000 quid on the "best" machine on the market. rubbish! i'm supposed to expect a tolerance of 4 tenths of a mm over the length of the sliding table. try fitting the same counter profiled shoulder onto both ends of profiled stile......good luck!
currently (with very few exceptions, like my ability to debate with you now), our civilisation is not moving forwards.
the first abilities to loose we don't notice. will you still think this way when you cant find someone to make a front door. or a made to measure suit?
jeff
I can see where you guys are coming from and can understand the lack of interest in certain old crafts. Coopering being one of these but the porfolio i have covers many items and not just barrels for their intended use.
My ex workmate who is the last remaining cooper for a well known brewery in wiltshire gets requests for all types of work and keeps asking me if i want the work as he don't have time (he has to maintain brewery stock) untill now i've had to turn him down but with my new workshop soon to take place im sure things will work out.
Im not looking at making big bucks but some the products i will be making are sold through a number of outlets around the country and they are making a good living. Remember they are having to pay someone to create these pieces where as i won't have to.
you can diss my venture as a waste of time but unless you have worked within the coopering field and the interest it has i won't let any of the negative comments bother me.
PS, why can't i upload photobucket images to show you what i can do. do you need approval?
pete
My ex workmate who is the last remaining cooper for a well known brewery in wiltshire gets requests for all types of work and keeps asking me if i want the work as he don't have time (he has to maintain brewery stock) untill now i've had to turn him down but with my new workshop soon to take place im sure things will work out.
Im not looking at making big bucks but some the products i will be making are sold through a number of outlets around the country and they are making a good living. Remember they are having to pay someone to create these pieces where as i won't have to.
you can diss my venture as a waste of time but unless you have worked within the coopering field and the interest it has i won't let any of the negative comments bother me.
PS, why can't i upload photobucket images to show you what i can do. do you need approval?
pete
ByronBlack
Established Member
pete-c":23jbvaaj said:
Pete - I don't think you'll see anywhere in this thread anyone saying your venture is a waste of time.
ByronBlack
Established Member
jeffinfrance":2y9nnutk said:
For each of your anecdotes, I can equal them with things that are much better today than yesteryear, but that will just take us round in circles.
You seem to think that we should all retain manufacturing for the sake of it - as we move forwards, there will be different jobs to replace the manufacturing/labouring jobs.
As for cheap stuff made in India and so on - that has ALWAYS been the case since the dawn of commerce, it used to be eastern europe, then it was south america, now it's the subcontinent and parts of Asia - that is economics, and really nothing to do with this discussion of trying to keep alive crafts and redundant skills when they are clearly replaceable and no longer needed.
One thing I totally agree with you, and that is of the false society of consumerism that the governments and corporations have brain washed large swathes of the world to follow slavishly - something I over the last few years have completely rejected. I'm a personal believer that we should drastically cut the emphasis on consumerism - but thats another subject for another forum.
If I may take Brad's name in vane I would like to make an example.
He hand crafts a piece of furniture and charges a customer a thousand pounds.
He expands and sells now to a major west end outlet, the retail price will now be at least two thousand as according to my daughter, in the trade, the mark up is a least 100 percent.
Now me, I would love to buy barrel, or is it cask, planters as plastic pots around here are useless as the wind blows any tall plants in pots over.
For tall plants we use cement or clays, which can be damaged in a frost, which a cask one would be free from, but I can't even get them.
If the price was comparable I would go for the timber ones every time.
Roy.
He hand crafts a piece of furniture and charges a customer a thousand pounds.
He expands and sells now to a major west end outlet, the retail price will now be at least two thousand as according to my daughter, in the trade, the mark up is a least 100 percent.
Now me, I would love to buy barrel, or is it cask, planters as plastic pots around here are useless as the wind blows any tall plants in pots over.
For tall plants we use cement or clays, which can be damaged in a frost, which a cask one would be free from, but I can't even get them.
If the price was comparable I would go for the timber ones every time.
Roy.
ByronBlack
Established Member
Digit":3cn3zjpm said:
With todays fantastic innovation of the internet, I've managed to find you this for just £24.99
http://homehardware.org.uk/productDetail.asp?PID=19962&categoryID=2832
Is that the kind of thing you are after?
I don't know your age BB but I'm probably ahead of you and crime is one thing that is much worse now than of yore.
I would also add that sometimes the spin off is not always in monetary terms.
An example. Back in the days of hurdles etc woodland was maintained on the 'coppice with standards' system. Since it's decrease there has been a corresponding decrease in all forms of wild life that thrived only in the areas where sunlight could freely reach the woodland floor.
The decrease in thatching resulted in the uncontrolled spread of reed, that then had to be controlled at a loss.
It may be subjective but in recent years my tipple has returned to cider, as the modern camel's pee that comes out of an alli cask seems to be nothing like as tasty as that of my younger days.
Then of course 'progress' would include thousands of speed cameras all designed to save lives, or so I am informed.
I am also extremely aware of the improvements in comfort etc that have accrued within my life time.
Roy.
I would also add that sometimes the spin off is not always in monetary terms.
An example. Back in the days of hurdles etc woodland was maintained on the 'coppice with standards' system. Since it's decrease there has been a corresponding decrease in all forms of wild life that thrived only in the areas where sunlight could freely reach the woodland floor.
The decrease in thatching resulted in the uncontrolled spread of reed, that then had to be controlled at a loss.
It may be subjective but in recent years my tipple has returned to cider, as the modern camel's pee that comes out of an alli cask seems to be nothing like as tasty as that of my younger days.
Then of course 'progress' would include thousands of speed cameras all designed to save lives, or so I am informed.
I am also extremely aware of the improvements in comfort etc that have accrued within my life time.
Roy.
Mike.C
Established Member
BB wrote:
BB, I did not say that I am blanketing every product, but just off the top of my head where tv's may do a lot more now then used to, they are certainly not as well made and there longevity has taken a bashing. For instance my last 4 sets lasted 5 years, 6 years, 5 years and 6 years.
Furniture, obviously forum members have the tools to make their own, but you are not telling me that much of the furniture you can buy today is quailty?
Cheers
Mike
BB, I did not say that I am blanketing every product, but just off the top of my head where tv's may do a lot more now then used to, they are certainly not as well made and there longevity has taken a bashing. For instance my last 4 sets lasted 5 years, 6 years, 5 years and 6 years.
Furniture, obviously forum members have the tools to make their own, but you are not telling me that much of the furniture you can buy today is quailty?
Cheers
Mike
