Riots - Bring on the army

[kmcleod]

Interesting debate,,,my view...

Do we need the army - maybe,,,,,do we need lethal force, only if the situation demands - what is certainly needed is a more 'robust' and 'direct' approach to stopping this, either through force or levels of manpower.

think about this - police in the uk are trained to try and contain riots, then collect evidence to be used in trials of anyone involved, the army's training for public order is more direct, it is to surpress the riot by any means required, doing it quickly and as efficently as possible, and that means inflicting casulaties on anyone who will not disperse or surrender immedialtely.

For public order use of the army is a very heavy and blunt tool, and one that the current crop of politicians are scared to even get close to - but the alternative is worse, and was on the news channels today - large groups of vigilantes looking for trouble, which will escalate and turn into gang warfare.

Either our politican grow some balls and make some hard decisions quickly or there is every chance it could be a very bumpy few months.

Finally,
Message to LuptonM
- stop being a dick, and critising people just because they are older, at least they have some experience of life and what it takes to survive. Most of us here were around in the 1980's and life was a hell of a lot harder than today, especially for those who beleive that 'respect' is due to them for nothing more than having an atitude.
Respect like experience is earned, and both take time to gain,,,give yourself about 20years experience of life as an adult, and then you can put forth your views without sounding like a muppet.
Plus, 'if' you are attending Oxford uni, and are about to go into 'investment banking' just remember you've had a few very priveledged few years as a student, doing not a lot more than attending lectures, and maybe the odd party or ten, that combined with you route into being a 'banker' is because of family connections rather than merit, will put you firmly in the sights of the very people you seek to applaud.

 

[rileytoolworks]

Message to LuptonM
- stop being a dick, and critising people just because they are older, at least they have some experience of life and what it takes to survive. Most of us here were around in the 1980's and life was a hell of a lot harder than today, especially for those who beleive that 'respect' is due to them for nothing more than having an atitude.
Respect like experience is earned, and both take time to gain,,,give yourself about 20years experience of life as an adult, and then you can put forth your views without sounding like a muppet.
Plus, 'if' you are attending Oxford uni, and are about to go into 'investment banking' just remember you've had a few very priveledged few years as a student, doing not a lot more than attending lectures, and maybe the odd party or ten, that combined with you route into being a 'banker' is because of family connections rather than merit, will put you firmly in the sights of the very people you seek to applaud.

Well said that man.. =D> =D> =D> =D>

 

[MickCheese]

I have just read this thread from start to finish.

It seems to me we have two issues here, one is the trouble at the moment the second is much harder to fix and that is the lost generation of youths on these estates.

Cameron talks about them paying for their actions; they have nothing to pay with. They fear nothing because they have no hope, they have no aspirations, and there are no opportunities for them. They are a lost generation and I wonder if it is just too late for them. They have been let down by their parents. Many of them cannot read and write and have had no guidance. Their role models are criminals, drug dealers and gangster rappers. There are extended families in this country where not one person works or has every worked and they grew up knowing there is no hope of work.

I found LptonM's post quite sad really. Here is clearly a young person who has a poor grasp of the English language and a naive simplistic outlook, yet thinks he will be going to work as a merchant banker. The area I work in is full of young people who have real difficulty constructing a clear sentence with correctly spelled words in simple paragraphs. I am no Einstein but I try to write clearly and logically.

We need these youths to be given hope and opportunity long before they get to the age where they can express an opinion by joining a gang, robbing people or dealing in drugs.

So, deal with the disturbances occurring now in a robust and lawful way. Then, start to look at how we are going to give the younger kids some light at the end of the tunnel to stop them turning into the same monsters as their older peers.

Mick

 

[RogerS]

......
I hope the ISP's and the phone companies are going to provide the police with the info they need to stop these people

Unfortunately it's not as easy as that. Many thugs are allegedly using Blackberry Messaging which is encrypted. Now GCHQ may or may not be able to decrypt these..they're not going to tell us. So th only option is the legal route which as can be seen from this article is not exactly easy http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14465546. This was all drafted for fear of the police et al going on fishing expeditions. Well, given where we are now, I for one wouldn't mind it at all if they were given unfettered access.

and the that the freedom of speach and human rights lot will keep their collective mouths shut and let the police get on with their job in stopping this from spreading.
Tom

But it won't happen because of the Human Rights twits...who can shoulder a large part of the blame as to where we are now.

 

[RogerS]

.......

Camerons Big Society, I think someone in No 10 instead of telling him everything is fine, should perhaps tell him it is F****ed.

.....

It was F****ed before Cameron took over.

 

[newt]

Some chap on the radio suggested spraying them with dog mess (just the thought makes me feel ill) he said there is plenty and it could be watered down. Then some one else said it would conflict with human rights as they could catch something. I think they were both serious and they sounded sober.

 

[tomatwark]

The only human rights these people need is to make sure that they get a 10 years in prison, in a 6 by 6 cell with a bed, one blanket, a bucket in the corner, a couple of meals a day and medical care if they need it.

NO, TV, ciggies, mobile phone, internet access etc as these things are not human rights, but luxuries they can do without.

Tom

 

[Scouse]

A bloke on the radio up here suggested the police shoot them with paintball guns filled with the stuff banks put in exploding dye packs, which can't be washed off; easy to identify later.

 

[RogerS]

I offer this rather excellent comment from Dave Wickard, Minnesota, in response to Max Hasting's rather well-balanced article here

As our world slides into the great darkness built and maintained by liberalism, only those of us remaining from an age of decency will mourn its passing. There is little to protect us from ourselves. A generation without morals or civility is an entree we have ordered from the menu of modern liberalism. We cannot act surprised when the waiter brings us the selection we have ourselves chosen.

 

[MIGNAL]

I suppose we can all go back to the non liberal darkness of 1642!

 

[Jacob]

I offer this rather excellent comment from Dave Wickard, Minnesota, in response to Max Hasting's rather well-balanced article here

As our world slides into the great darkness built and maintained by liberalism, only those of us remaining from an age of decency will mourn its passing. There is little to protect us from ourselves. A generation without morals or civility is an entree we have ordered from the menu of modern liberalism. We cannot act surprised when the waiter brings us the selection we have ourselves chosen.

100% nonsense.
You don't expect anything intelligent from the Daily Mail, especially not on this issue, the DM being a consistent rabble rouser and agent of division and hatred.
Let's face it, the DM and the rest of the silly person press are loving every minute of it.

 

[MIGNAL]

We've been having riots for hundreds of years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Scholastica_riot

Sleepy Oxford, all over a bit of the amber nectar

The first recorded riots that I can find go back to the Roman empire.
Throughout history there have been huge numbers of riots, especially taking into account the relatively lower populations of previous centuries. Crikey! That's at a time when communications were pretty slow. Throw in a mass media, mobile phones, the internet and I doubt that anyone would have survived past the 17th century!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

 

[RogerS]

An oh-so predictable response, Jacob. Surely you can do better?

 

[Richard T]

What was more effective; 16,000 coppers or a spot of rain?

 

[Jacob]

We've been having riots for hundreds of years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Scholastica_riot

Sleepy Oxford, all over a bit of the amber nectar

The first recorded riots that I can find go back to the Roman empire.
Throughout history there have been huge numbers of riots, especially taking into account the relatively lower populations of previous centuries. Crikey! That's at a time when communications were pretty slow. Throw in a mass media, mobile phones, the internet and I doubt that anyone would have survived past the 17th century!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

What "The Great Wave" says is that disturbances are nearly always related to real material issues with something as a trigger e.g. the storming of the Bastille following on from peak bread prices ("let them eat cake" etc).
The current round (rain stop play) will be no different, though it is difficult to know the precise causes without the benefit of hind sight.
Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.

 

[defsdoor]

So basically - everything is to blame ?

Bu not that these people have no respect, no morals and no fear of consequences.

 

[RogerS]

.....
Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.

Or maybe none of these, Holy Cows though they may be to you, Jacob, and responsible for everything from the Plagues of Egypt to my ingrowing toenail.

 

[MIGNAL]

So basically - everything is to blame ?

Bu not that these people have no respect, no morals and no fear of consequences.

If you are referring to the Politicians, the Press, the Bankers then I entirely agree. I guess they thought themselves invicible. You know the type: we are so important and superior that we can do what the hell we like. In other words: no respect, no morals and no fear of the consequences.
Sound familiar?

 

[Jacob]

Interesting Guardian item here. Society run on greed and looting - from the top.
Those who think the graunaid is biased should have a look at todays issue. There are articles blaming parents, and "entitlement culture", which should please yer average DM reading dullard!
I call that balance!

 

[Benchwayze]

What was more effective; 16,000 coppers or a spot of rain?

=D> =D> =D>