Riots - Bring on the army

[barkwindjammer]

So basically - everything is to blame ?

Bu not that these people have no respect, no morals and no fear of consequences.

Jacob is right
Its the best educated, most priveleged, and most affluent that hold the rudder for this country, they have been vested with the responsibility to mark our course, where are we now, Treasure Island ?.
Why should the scum of this country assume responsibility for its failings when the big wigs can and regularly dodge accountability ?. If anyone has not seen this coming for the last decade or two then they are blissfully out of touch.

 

[nanscombe]

What "The Great Wave" says is that disturbances are nearly always related to real material issues with something as a trigger e.g. the storming of the Bastille following on from peak bread prices ("let them eat cake" etc).
The current round (rain stop play) will be no different, though it is difficult to know the precise causes without the benefit of hind sight.

Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.

Or possibly ...

I'm bored. :-k

Let's have a bit of fun by goin' on the rob. There's so many of us they'll never get us all. :twisted:

Just shove it on eBay an' buy me another pair of Nikes. Either that or it'll pay for me Blackberry for month or two. \/

Occam's Razor

simpler explanations are, other things being equal, generally better than more complex ones

Maybe NuLabour's CCTV has found a use after all.

 

[Lons]

Can have a guess though; bankers bonusses in spite of their abject failures, directors record breaking pensions, corrupt press, police, politicians, a culture of greed and amorality at the highest levels, the desperate fight to keep taxation low (i.e. to evade contributing to society), all set against rising unemployment and cuts, impossible rents and house prices, low wages, the dismantling of the NHS and state education, are bound to be part of the equation.

Yebut....... you've only got the part you want to concentrate on Jacob.

The people affected by the issues you raise are the hardworking families already stretched to the limit by the irresponsible spending of previous governments and now being intimidated and losing their jobs as these criminals target business premises (the rich) for personal gain.

The riots are very likely highly organised by a core of individuals and probably politically motivated. Todays technology and media thirst for the dramatic makes it very simple to goad these sheep (idiotic morons) into mindless action whilst they sit back laughing.

The issues you mention are serious and some of them stink to high heaven but the majority of the people involved in the riots are not affected by the prices and cuts. Do you really think that they are the first to sit and watch or read about what the politicians are doing, current interest rates, house price trends the NHS or education. Many of these yobs will never have been employed and have no wish to be as they receive free benefits, pay no rent, get free prescriptions dental treatment and even furniture if they wish. All their time is their own to socialise, drink and work in the black economy (often theft or drug related).
They are not at all phased by the possibility of a prison sentence as it is not the deterrent it should be and it's highly unlikely they would imprisoned anyway. They have to go through the process of ASBOs, tags, fines (never paid) and repeated offences before that happens.

They are the product, not only of todays government and society but of the extreme liberal attitudes, do gooders and human rights medlers of the past 30 years. It's gone too far when you see very young children on the street, backchatting their parent and other adults and saying "can't touch me, I'll report you to the social" :shock: No one wants to return to the dark ages but looks to me like it's here anyway.

The perpetrators steal because they can and only direct and like for like action can stop it IMO. The softly softly approach just does not work and is one of the reasons we are in this mess.

My father was a miner and I grew up on a council estate as part of a large family, we were poor as were many of our neighbours. They helped each other, doors were not locked and nobody worried about being robbed or mugged. If we were being a bit too noisy on street corners and an adult asked us to keep it down a bit, that's exactly what happened...... we were taught respect. My parents allowed us freedom but insisted they know where we were, who with and we had specific deadline to be home in the evening. Weren't allowed out on schooldays until homework was completed.

Some of my family still live on these large estates. One in particular in a very bad area where perhaps one in 20 has a working family member and numerous are 1 parent, usually single mother families. A huge openly criminal element and police no go area at times. He has managed to raise his 3 children with moral values he can be proud of. Certainly indicates to me where the problems lie.
One of his neighbours for example has 4 kids by 4 different fathers, The 2 teenage daughters now have followed their mother by similar action to get their own council house and that is the common attitude. They believe they are entitled to be "kept" by the state - BY US

Gripe over - feel better now - off for a lie down though.

PS - never read the daily mail in my life BTW
Bob

 

[RogerS]

Lons...absolutely spot on, mate.. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Only slight difference of opinion in that many shops etc that were torched were your typical small businessman/owner.

 

[MIGNAL]

But what has chaged Lons? Read some history! Nothing to do with wishy washy liberals of the last 30 years. . .

Oxford Riots of 1355: Over 90 dead.

A riot of 1517.

Within a few hours approximately a thousand young male apprentices had congregated in Cheapside. The mob freed several prisoners who were locked up for attacking foreigners and proceeded to St Martin le Grand. . .

As soon as More had calmed them, however, the inhabitants of St Martin started to throw stones, bricks, bats and boiling water from their windows. . .


Spitalfield Riots:

Riots among the Spitalfields weavers were common. Any decline of prices, or opposition in trade, would lead to violence.
An Act was passed in 1765, making it a felony punishable by death to break into any house, or shop, with the intent to maliciously destroy, or damage, any silk in the process of manufacture. The 'cutters' continued rioting in 1767, 1768 and again in 1769; attacking workshops and wounding any who stood in their way.

I could continue. . . .

 

[tomatwark]

Just watched a bit of the debate in parliament.

What a total waste of time and tax payers money, we have just spent alot of tax payers money in expenses so the MP's can waffle on and take no real action.

Cameron says there is no money, so he has to cut the police.

If he grew a pair of balls and withdrew the troops from the various wars he is fighting, stopped giving money to other countries and told europe that until they stop moving parliament every 6 months we are not giving them any either he would be able to start to sort the problems out.

But he is only intersested in the next election.

I bet if they had ransacked Witney in Oxfordshire the army would have been sent in.

What a load of pineapples.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

But what has chaged Lons? Read some history! Nothing to do with wishy washy liberals of the last 30 years. . .

Oxford Riots of 1355: Over 90 dead.

A riot of 1517.

Within a few hours approximately a thousand young male apprentices had congregated in Cheapside. The mob freed several prisoners who were locked up for attacking foreigners and proceeded to St Martin le Grand. . .

As soon as More had calmed them, however, the inhabitants of St Martin started to throw stones, bricks, bats and boiling water from their windows. . .


Spitalfield Riots:

Riots among the Spitalfields weavers were common. Any decline of prices, or opposition in trade, would lead to violence.
An Act was passed in 1765, making it a felony punishable by death to break into any house, or shop, with the intent to maliciously destroy, or damage, any silk in the process of manufacture. The 'cutters' continued rioting in 1767, 1768 and again in 1769; attacking workshops and wounding any who stood in their way.

I could continue. . . .

:lol:
We had the Pentrich Revolution just down the road.

 

[MIGNAL]

This one was supposedly a jolly good toff riot. Between a few Royalty lot and those in Parliament, whom very recently looted some of our money.
Of course they weren't happy to thrash it out amongst themselves. They had to call in a huge number of peasant (yobbo) types from the various noble (council) estates dotted up and down the land.
Great number of dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War

 

[DaveyP]

The one thing we learn from history, is that we don't learn from history.

But with past riots there seems to of been a purpose.. an aim or a goal, a common enemy to vent the anger against.

The looting (now called burglary), arson, muggings, criminal damage are mindless attacks by mindless individuals who don't give a flying **** about anything or anyone.

I say slot em.

 

[RogerS]

Just watched a bit of the debate in parliament.

What a total waste of time and tax payers money, we have just spent alot of tax payers money in expenses so the MP's can waffle on and take no real action.

Cameron says there is no money, so he has to cut the police.

......

Tom

Tom, I'm not too sure what you expected to hear. There is no Magic Bullet - I wish there were. With regard to the police cuts, the police themselves admit that only 12% of their time is actually 'active' thanks to the box-ticking mentality that labour foisted on us over the last ten years. So cutting the other 82% will more than make up for any cuts.

On the broader front, we get the old chestnuts brought out time and time again. 'It was Thatcher's fault' etc etc. It might have been...it might not. But successive Governments and in particular the last lot have nibbled away at any sort of sanction against bad/unruly/loutish/criminal behaviour. So if I were David Cameron, what would I do?

1) Scrap all the red tape that the police and other organisations like social services have to contend with. Cut anything that smacks of a box-ticking mentality
2) We can't have a commonsense debate on resolving the problems in our society unless we :

a) get rid of this millstone of Political Correctness where people are afraid to speak out lst they be accused of being racist
b) ban solicitors and lawyers being able to advertise and also carry out no-win-no-fee cases - reviewable once commonsense is back and people take responsibility for their own actions
c) health and safety only applies to the workplace, building sites etc. Not to parks where someone is scared a branch might fall off a tree so they chop them all down

3) Repeal the Human Rights Act which is way too much slanted in favour of the antagonist. Review it in later years once commonsense is back.

4) Bring back corporal punishment in schools. Review it once troublemakers start to take responsibility for their own actions. Ditto allow parents to smack their kids.

5) Bring back the birch for certain offences such as vandalism...to be carried out in public in the community where the vandalism took place

5a) Anyone charged and found guilty of an offence under the age of sixteen then their parents are also sentenced alongside them. If it's a single parent family then all steps should be taken to find the 'other' parent so that they too can be sentenced.

6) Get rid of ASBO's as they are seen as a Badge of Honour. Instead, put some meat into Community Service and make them wear coverings that delineate the fact that they are a criminal.

7) Get rid of everyone on the Sentencing Guidelines Council who to a man (and woman) have single-handedly destroyed any sort of sanction in the penal system. They are the ones for the pathetically low sentences given out as they set the guidelines that judges and magistrates should follow.

8 ) Take into account the affect on the victim when sentencing the criminal.

9) Prisons. No TV unless they are for educational purposes. More study and education facilities. Food...basic. No games, Nintendo's etc. Introduce a work scheme and make the prisoners earn their keep. Install a mobile phone blocker so they can't use those smuggled phones. No remission unless the prisoner signs up to and follows sincerely a programme of education and rehabilitation. Put funds into this scheme. Once out of prison, give them more support to get a job. If they end up in prison again then double the sentence. Try the education and rehabilitation programme again. Once out of prison give them more support to get a job and stay in it. If they end up in prison again then that's it. Heavy labour prison.

10) Drugs. Free issue. With the money saved from fewer insurance claims for theft to support the habit, from fewer demands on the NHS from mugging victims, introduce more rehab centres. That will cut drug-related crime and what would gangs have to fight over?

11) TV. Soaps. Love to ban them but that's probably a step too far but change the editorial line to be about 1 miilion percent less confrontational.

12) Footballers. Maximum wage £100k a year. Ditto bankers and anyone else in finance.

That'll do for starters. All those behind me..all together now...Vote For Roger

 

[MIGNAL]

Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.

 

[tomatwark]

I heard exactly what I expected to hear.

I just think the money could have been better spent.

RogerS for PM =D> =D>

Tom

 

[RogerS]

Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.

OK..dead easy to denigrate it. What do you propose?

 

[studders]

I think it's high time being sent to Prison was a punishment rather than an Inconvenience. No TV full stop, no computers, computer games, personal radios or making calls from communal phones. They can receive monitored calls but not make any. No free education, that costs money so why should they get it when many law abiding people don't? They should be made to work eight hours a day like the everyone else has to and only receive credits to buy 'luxuries' etc.
I know many will say that prison doesn't work when used as a punishment, so what? It clearly doesn't work as a means of rehabilitation either; as for being a deterrent, that's a joke.
Thens there's the cost, if going to prison meant real deprivation, loss of liberty and rights then it might make many think twice about breaking the law in the first place. That will cost us all less in the long term.
Make sure that people who commit offences deemed too 'minor' for a prison sentence are made to carry out worthwhile work in the community, and make it obvious to everyone who can see them what they are doing, nice yellow suit with OFFENDER front and back. I know a chap who was given community service, he laughed and joked about it, said it was pathetic, even managed to nick lots of the protective clothing they get issued with! Make them pay for their own damn protective clothing, make them work, not just 'turn up' for a laugh.
Think about the cost of giving drug addicts free sterile needles so the darlings don't infect themselves. What do they do with the used needles? Toss them away so other people risk getting infected plus cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands a year clearing the damn things up. Scrap it, now.

 

[Digit]

Without wishing to get involved in any pointless debates with out left wing I would like to make a series of practical observations.
Many years ago, when I was flogging insurance, 'civil unrest' was excluded from any claims.
I accept that that may have changed, if not, those small businesses that were serving the communiy will be faced with no means of recouping their losses. Indeed they may find themselves financially responsible for some of their stock that has not yet been paid for. They may also face continued payments for rent. Many leases are 'fully repairing', thus they will have to meet the cost of repairs before they can even get out of the lease.
Many small businesses run on an overdraft, I doubt that the banks will let them off the hook.
Also many busines people will be personally resposible for all losses, thus any assets, such as their homes, will also be forfeit.
All so some pratt can get a cheap TV!

Roy.

 

[Karl]

My understanding is that the tax payer will ultimately be footing the bill for the damage caused.

 

[Digit]

Based on past experience Karl two things will happen. Firstly, the compensation will fall far short out that which is necessary, and secondly, by the time it is paid out many small businesses will have gone under.

Roy.

 

[JMcK]

Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.

OK..dead easy to denigrate it. What do you propose?

You missed out public executions. :roll:

 

[tomatwark]

Based on past experience Karl two things will happen. Firstly, the compensation will fall far short out that which is necessary, and secondly, by the time it is paid out many small businesses will have gone under.

Roy.

That's what happened to a lot of farmers with the TB outbreak and it will certainly happen this time as well.

The other point is a business renting their premises may find their insurance company pay out for the stock but then find the landlord dragging their feet over the rebuilding.

In my workshops I insure the contents but my landlady insures the buildings.

I also suspect there will be cases the landlord pockets the compensation and then sits on a plot until the market is better and sells it for development.

Tom

 

[studders]

Nice! Sounds a bit like Zimbabwe.

OK..dead easy to denigrate it. What do you propose?

You missed out public executions. :roll:

No, I think we aired that and decided.. no, well not just yet anyway.