Putin is a loser

[Fergie 307]

The failure of communism, or at least the Soviet interpretation, long preceded any of your races.
Millions starved owing to collectivisation of farming.
As with so many things the problem was those in charge being chosen primarily for their ideological reliability, rather than any knowledge of the subject.
When their troops swept into Germany they were astonished at the standard of living of the average German, way above that of most living in their socialist Eutopia. The German "peasant farmer" was in a completely different league to their soviet counterpart.
So in reality the gulf between the most equal and the rest was probably even greater in the Soviet Union than in the west, certainly in terms of wealth.
I can't readily think of any other system than communism that has needed walls and barbed wire in order to keep their people from fleeing it's embrace.

 

[Fergie 307]

And let us not forget that in effect capitalism won the war.
Roosevelt's decision to allow American companies to bid for contracts for war material, and make a profit, was profound.
It really did turn America into the arsenal of democracy.
The truly staggering quantities of equipment produced were unequalled by the command economies of the Nazis and Soviets.
It was without doubt US industrial might which won the war, not least for the Soviets who could not have done so without it.

 

[selectortone]

Where have you got that dung from? Hitler was a sworn enemy of socialism, and the Nazi party was right wing totalitarianism not left wing. The use of socialism in the party name was just to fool working class people that it was looking out for their interests, whereas Hitler's only real interest was keeping the elites around him happy (and races he didn't like, dying).

Absolutely. It's a common trope that started in the USA when left-wingers started to accuse extremist rightwingers of being nazis. Some bright spark came up with 'but we can't be nazis because the name has 'socialist' in it!' idea. Whereas in truth, true socialists were among the first to be interned in concentration camps - as early as the mid 30s.

 

[TRITON]

And let us not forget that in effect capitalism won the war.
Roosevelt's decision to allow American companies to bid for contracts for war material, and make a profit, was profound.
It really did turn America into the arsenal of democracy.
The truly staggering quantities of equipment produced were unequalled by the command economies of the Nazis and Soviets.
It was without doubt US industrial might which won the war, not least for the Soviets who could not have done so without it.

Until the start of WW2, Henry Ford was supplying the German army with vehicles. He was even awarded a medal- The grand cross of the German eagle by Hitler.
Ford was committed to antisemitism and supporter nazi ideology.
Soon as the US became involved, he saw that he could make millions supplying the US with vehicles.

I wonder if the US army used any captured German army vehicles for spare parts for their own trucks

 

[Jacob]

So, let me get this right.,.
Socialism - unlike Capitalism - can't really be defined.

Both are sets of ideas which can be described, and at great length, but not "defined" in a scientific sort of way.

Because one cannot define it then one can't hold it to account, even when it goes awry.

The people doing it, making it happen whatever it is, are the ones to hold to account, for better or worse.

This is all getting to sound a bit wishy washy.

Yes it would do if you are looking for a "definition"!

Google's AI has a stab at it - very interesting too! Click on the "show more" buttons
Capitalism
Socialism
Have to say - as described here Capitalism sounds relatively hypothetical and ideological, but Socialism more realistic and practical.

 

[Fergie 307]

Until the start of WW2, Henry Ford was supplying the German army with vehicles. He was even awarded a medal- The grand cross of the German eagle by Hitler.
Ford was committed to antisemitism and supporter nazi ideology.
Soon as the US became involved, he saw that he could make millions supplying the US with vehicles.

I wonder if the US army used any captured German army vehicles for spare parts for their own trucks

Yep, Henry was a pretty unpleasant individual.
He didn't get on board at first, but when he did the outcome was predictable. Willow Run turned out a new B24 about every 50 minutes if I recall correctly.
Ford made a great many Jeeps, I think it was GM who made the most trucks. Their 6x6 is an amazing piece of kit. Thousands employed by the Soviets for the final push to Berlin. And the mainstay of the red ball express delivering material to our own front lines.
GM's steering division made the Browning machine gun, increased production ten fold at reduced cost and better quality than the original.

 

[AJB Temple]

I didn't know about Henry Ford supplying the German army. I suppose when people are not at war (and the US was neutral I think anyway at first) it is presumably OK to supply anyone with vehicles. I guess jeeps are not really arms as such, but the arms business has always seemed pretty indiscriminatory to me as it is mainly about money. The UK has in the past provided arms to some regimes that we might prefer to gloss over.

 

[AJB Temple]

Incidentally, considering they made many thousands of them, it's amazing that only a couple of airworthy B24 Liberators are left. I got to have a sit in the cockpit of one when I was a kid, with the engines running. This was at an Avro Shackleton base in Devon. No idea what the B24 was doing there. My dad blagged a flight for him and me in a Shackleton when we were camping near Dartmouth when I was a kid. I don't recall much about it except the planes were grey, very noisy and we flew low over the Devon coast. Something to do with air sea rescue I think.

 

[Fergie 307]

Not sure if there are any airworthy B29's. During the war there were hundreds at Tinian alone.

 

[Fergie 307]

Incidentally, considering they made many thousands of them, it's amazing that only a couple of airworthy B24 Liberators are left. I got to have a sit in the cockpit of one when I was a kid, with the engines running. This was at an Avro Shackleton base in Devon. No idea what the B24 was doing there. My dad blagged a flight for him and me in a Shackleton when we were camping near Dartmouth when I was a kid. I don't recall much about it except the planes were grey, very noisy and we flew low over the Devon coast. Something to do with air sea rescue I think.

They had the longest range of any heavy bomber at the time so we're used to patrol the Atlantic gap against the German U boats.
James Stewart flew them over Germany, and was very nearly killed landing a badly damaged one.

 

[selectortone]

My Dad flew a Liberator a couple of times when he was stationed in North Africa. He loved them; said it was just like driving a big comfortable truck - especially after the claustrophobic cockpit of a Beaufighter.

 

[selectortone]

Not sure if there are any airworthy B29's. During the war there were hundreds at Tinian alone.

There are a couple doing the airshow circuit in the USA. Lots of YouTube videos.

 

[Fergie 307]

There are a couple doing the airshow circuit in the USA. Lots of YouTube videos.

Good to know.

 

[Jake]

Absolutely. It's a common trope that started in the USA when left-wingers started to accuse extremist rightwingers of being nazis. Some bright spark came up with 'but we can't be nazis because the name has 'socialist' in it!' idea. Whereas in truth, true socialists were among the first to be interned in concentration camps - as early as the mid 30s.

Dachau was originally created specifically for lefties.

 

[Delaney]

Where have you got that dung from? Hitler was a sworn enemy of socialism, and the Nazi party was right wing totalitarianism not left wing. The use of socialism in the party name was just to fool working class people that it was looking out for their interests, whereas Hitler's only real interest was keeping the elites around him happy (and races he didn't like, dying).
you’ll find all radical political positions are the same, neither right not left wing once in power.

Communists closed borders, had elites, were hyper national and didn’t like foreigners either.

What’s more is that these communists/socialists, knew you couldn’t run a Utopia in an open system, hence why they all run tightly controlled closed systems.
Something the modern socialist air head hasn’t yet understood l, given they promote mass immigration and socialism which are counter forces.

 

[selectortone]

Dachau was originally created specifically for lefties

Yes it was. I have been there. A very sobering experience. All the huts are gone save one, but the gas chamber and ovens remain.

The admin block has been turned into a museum with hundreds of photos.

The 'Arbeit Macht Frei' sign is still there over the main gate.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Arbeit macht frei? Auschwitz, surely?

 

[selectortone]

Arbeit macht frei? Auschwitz, surely?

The sign was common to most concentration camps. The Dachau sign and gate it was attached to was stolen at one point:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/stolen-arbeit-macht-frei-gate-returns-dachau-180962252/

 

[TRITON]

Yep, Henry was a pretty unpleasant individual.
He didn't get on board at first, but when he did the outcome was predictable. Willow Run turned out a new B24 about every 50 minutes if I recall correctly.
Ford made a great many Jeeps, I think it was GM who made the most trucks. Their 6x6 is an amazing piece of kit. Thousands employed by the Soviets for the final push to Berlin. And the mainstay of the red ball express delivering material to our own front lines.
GM's steering division made the Browning machine gun, increased production ten fold at reduced cost and better quality than the original.

And Hitler approved the Volkswagen beetle.
Quite ironic that a right wing extremist and mass murderer should approve a car that became synonymous with the peace movement in 1960 and 70's hippy culture.

 

[selectortone]

When I visited Dachau in the mid 80s it was mid winter and there had been a heavy snowfall the night before and the whole site was blanketed in thick snow. It was a weekday and it was almost empty and still and quiet as the grave, made more so by the deep snow. I went inside the gas chamber and my footsteps echoed against the walls. I have never had such a cold chill and eerie feeling in my life.

I have never forgotten that day.