Putin is a loser

[Delaney]

Jacob, you are absolutely nuts

Exclude slavery, where the whites regarded enslaved negros as not human, and bred them for profit. Very socialist.

Killing the native Americans in mass genocide was OK because that was just a land grab. Socialists are of course allowed to kill indigenous people who live there because ......land ownership by socialists is fine.

The more you post, the more out of touch with decent humanity I think you are. Keep digging old fella.

Although ‘whites’ owned slaves, black people and others also owned slaves.
Breeding slaves was potentially not economically viable, as buying them would likely have been cheaper.
Slaves could buy their freedom and many did.

There is strong evidence to suggest that large numbers, If not the majority of native Indians, died of sickness after coming into contact with europeans.

But you are correct that Jacob is “absolutely nuts”.

 

[RobinBHM]

Trump would legalise slavery if he could.

Project 2025 is heading in that direction

 

[Krome10]

...but at least I'm not rectally verbose!

No? Well, you do do a fantastic job of promoting the stereotype of a thick, opinionated, brash, and unconsidered Yorkshireman. I say this in the understanding that a) being insulting is welcomed on this forum (as your many posts illustrate), and b) that racist jibes are welcomed; or is that only allowed against the Welsh (in which case perhaps the forum rules should specify who we can and cannot be racist towards).

The UNION OF SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLICS, All you need to know is included in the name.

Nice one! Perhaps you're unaware that the Nazi Party's official name = the National Socialist German Workers' Party? [No smug emoji needed]

But the real issue is that people confuse socialism and communism with totalitarianism / authoritarianism / dictatorship. Russia, China, Cuba etc are not communist or socialist.

Good point. As is often argued, if Marx lived in Communist Russia he would have been sent to the Gulag.

That will no doubt come back to haunt Starmer and the British people at some point as I can't see the Americans trusting that silly person again.

JD Vance was a staunch Trump critic, called him an idiot and reprehensible, and compared him to Hitler, amongst other things. Didn't seem to stop bygones being bygones.... I wouldn't be overly concerned.

 

[ey_tony]

No? Well, you do do a fantastic job of promoting the stereotype of a thick, opinionated, brash, and unconsidered Yorkshireman. I say this in the understanding that a) being insulting is welcomed on this forum (as your many posts illustrate), and b) that racist jibes are welcomed; or is that only allowed against the Welsh (in which case perhaps the forum rules should specify who we can and cannot be racist towards).

You can call me what you want, it won't offend me as I don't value your opinion and to be fair I've had intelligent people try that and they didn't succeed so you're wasting your time.
I don't know where you get the idea that 'racist jibes' are welcomed? I think your logic is a bit flawed to say the least or are you suggesting that I personally have made racist remarks in some of my posts, if so would you care to offer evidence?

 

[Krome10]

You don't value my opinion? I haven't given an opinion. I was illustrating that insults and racists remarks should not be used and are unnecessary in discussions such as these... With regards the insults made, I was referring to you. With regards the racism, I was referring to @TRITON (post #36).

What metric of intelligence are you using?

What aspect of my "logic" are you suggesting is "flawed"?

 

[thikone]

Yes, it is simplistic and insulting to reduce your judgement of another country or system just to what the government or mass media says in the time of conflict, like during the cold war or inherent conflict of communism vs capitalism.

You were reading only crime chronicles of Soviet Union, it seems.

Soviet Union was the first country to have paid maternity leave. Also government was providing free of charge kindergartens and schools. So women had freedom to work any job they are good at. Contrast that with situation in USA nowadays where women declared to be free but actually have to choose between having kids or career.

Soviet Union was the first country to have free education for everybody (and mandatory also). Also you had freedom of going to university at any time of your life and you would also get paid during studies that was enough to feed the family more or less. After Sputnik USA sent a delegation to USSR in 1957 to make a report about soviet education system. There is also NATO report on this subject made in 1959.

Today I would closely look at what education system China has. Children have hardly any spare time left besides studying. That's progressive, that leads to something, that's in everybody interest. But instead we tend to make bets in who is more right in whatever conflict there is and not even get paid for that...

 

[Jake]

What metric of intelligence are you using?

A much shorter plank than he thinks.

 

[Jacob]

Although ‘whites’ owned slaves, black people and others also owned slaves.

so what?

Breeding slaves was potentially not economically viable, as buying them would likely have been cheaper.
Slaves could buy their freedom and many did.

Very few did. More died before they even got to USA. They could "buy" their freedom if the "owner" agreed, typically by working for an extended number of years, 5, 10, etc for nothing. Many were freed when they were no longer able to work. As free men life would stay difficult due to racism, lynchings and other persecutions

There is strong evidence to suggest that large numbers, If not the majority of native Indians, died of sickness after coming into contact with europeans.

So that's OK then?
There is strong evidence also to suggest that large numbers, If not the majority of native Indians, died fighting over their land or as a result of the deprivations forced upon them.

But you are correct that Jacob is “absolutely nuts”.

How would you know?
Amazing to find someone on a woodwork forum defending and making excuses for slavery / genocide / ethnic cleansing / land theft! It's a strange world.

 

[niall Y]

Nice one! Perhaps you're unaware that the Nazi Party's official name = the National Socialist German Workers' Party? [No smug emoji needed]

No lack of awareness here...

As someone who regards themselves as a Socialist, I think the salutary truth is that Socialism can have a very dark side to it, especially if there are no checks and balances. The National Socialist German Workers Party was based on socialist principals and so for that matter is Communism. To deny this inconvenient truth is to leave oneself open to not learning the lessons of history.

It is a bit like saying that Heinrich Himmler wasn't a vegetarian, simply because one
doesn't want something that one might regard as wholesome, tainted by association.

 

[Jacob]

No lack of awareness here...

As someone who regards themselves as a Socialist, I think the salutary truth is that Socialism can have a very dark side to it,

It's more a case that the word has no precise meaning and all sorts of people use it for their own ends.
There's no connection between Labour party style of socialism and the Nazis.
It's a roundabout - current Labour party has supposedly purged itself of "socialists", but it hasn't purged them all and they will be back in due course!
On the other hand early Labour party members had high hopes of idealistic Russian communism. They gradually were disabused on this, at first not believing what they were hearing about Stalinism. Hungary 1956 largely put an end to the affair. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/21/politics.past
There are still UK communists, marxists, trotskyists, you name it! To find out what this means you would have to ask them individually. A "Marxist" may be just be sympathetic to the work of Marx and Engels' general picture, or some sort of raving revolutionary. Marx said that he himself was not a Marxist!

especially if there are no checks and balances. The National Socialist German Workers Party was based on socialist principals and so for that matter is Communism. To deny this inconvenient truth is to leave oneself open to not learning the lessons of history.

Not really. They used the word, but actions speak louder than words.

It is a bit like saying that Heinrich Himmler wasn't a vegetarian, simply because one
doesn't want something that one might regard as wholesome, tainted by association.

"Vegetarianism" has a specific meaning, "socialism" is used and misused in various ways - take a look at the rantings of @ey_tony It's as though all "meat eaters" are repressed cannibals!
In the UK "socialism" tends to mean roughly what the Labour party aspires to, not any external prescription of the meaning.

PS just had a quick look at Facebook and this was up front:

 

[niall Y]

It's more a case that the word has no precise meaning and all sorts of people use it for their own ends.
There's no connection between Labour party style of socialism and the Nazis.
It's a roundabout - current Labour party has supposedly purged itself of "socialists", but it hasn't purged them all and they will be back in due course!
On the other hand early Labour party members had high hopes of idealistic Russian communism. They gradually were disabused on this, at first not believing what they were hearing about Stalinism. Hungary 1956 largely put an end to the affair. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/21/politics.past
There are still UK communists, marxists, trotskyists, you name it! To find out what this means you would have to ask them individually. A "Marxist" may be just be sympathetic to the work of Marx and Engels' general picture, or some sort of raving revolutionary. Marx said that he himself was not a Marxist!

Not really. They used the word, but actions speak louder than words.

"Vegetarianism" has a specific meaning, "socialism" is used and misused in various ways - take a look at the rantings of @ey_tony It's as though all "meat eaters" are repressed cannibals!
In the UK "socialism" tends to mean roughly what the Labour party aspires to, not any external prescription of the meaning.

PS just had a quick look at Facebook and this was up front:

View attachment 192415

Thank you @Jacob for explaining away all those inconvenient truths. I'm sure that we can all rest soundly knowing that Socialism (unlike Capitalism) doesn't have an "unacceptable face".

 

[Jacob]

Thank you @Jacob for explaining away all those inconvenient truths. I'm sure that we can all rest soundly knowing that Socialism (unlike Capitalism) doesn't have an "unacceptable face".

It doesn't have a face at all! There isn't an "it" you can identify.
Capitalism is a bit more specific but still has a range of meanings, from just being a useful way of getting stuff done to extreme crackpot free marketing ideology as the solution to all societal problems.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

USA workers take far less holiday per year than almost all of Europe, so not having mandated paid leave is unhealthy.

And let’s be honest employers set pay based on market forces, if they could somebody cheaper, they would.

America = capitalism at its finest

The average annual working hours in the US is 1811 hours compared to 1532 hours in the UK - about 20% more. It is unclear if this is due to market forces, social or cultural differences..

Whether the extra income and services they produce are worth the stresses of less leave and family/home time is debateable.

 

[Delaney]

Yeah...and when that didn't work, ole' Joe decided that a mandatory famine in Ukraine was the answer. About 10 million died. Lovely chap. Think he was a communist.

It was a Bolsheviks who murdered 10m in Ukraine.

Trump would legalise slavery if he could.

Project 2025 is heading in that direction

We have legalised slavery. is called 'mass low skilled immigration'.

How does it go Robin? “We need them, they’re here to do the jobs British people wont”.

 

[niall Y]

It doesn't have a face at all! There isn't an "it" you can identify.
Capitalism is a bit more specific but still has a range of meanings, from just being a useful way of getting stuff done to extreme crackpot free marketing ideology as the solution to all societal problems

So, let me get this right.,.
Socialism - unlike Capitalism - can't really be defined. Because one cannot define it then one can't hold it to account, even when it goes awry. This is all getting to sound a bit wishy washy.

 

[Delaney]

Very few did. More died before they even got to USA. They could "buy" their freedom if the "owner" agreed, typically by working for an extended number of years, 5, 10, etc for nothing. Many were freed when they were no longer able to work. As free men life would stay difficult due to racism, lynchings and other persecutions

This is all irrelevant to the point being made. As tragic as it is/was.

So that's OK then?
There is strong evidence also to suggest that large numbers, If not the majority of native Indians, died fighting over their land or as a result of the deprivations forced upon them.

How would you know?
Amazing to find someone on a woodwork forum defending and making excuses for slavery / genocide / ethnic cleansing / land theft! It's a strange world.

I never defended or made excuses for any of those things. My partner is an ancestor of slaves, I have spent time with her family in the mountains where they escaped to. In the meantime you were probably wearing your East Anglia student union sweat shirt, reading 'Das Capital'.

I will over look your deliberate smears. Being an adult radical leftist means you’re not to be taken too seriously.

 

[TRITON]

You don't value my opinion? I haven't given an opinion. I was illustrating that insults and racists remarks should not be used and are unnecessary in discussions such as these... With regards the insults made, I was referring to you. With regards the racism, I was referring to @TRITON (post #36).

What metric of intelligence are you using?

What aspect of my "logic" are you suggesting is "flawed"?

First off my jibe against the Welsh was a jibe, and that was clear
Secondly,the Welsh arent a race, they are a nation and an ethnic group within the UK, of which I'm a part.
UK ethnic jokes, are something that within the UK are typical and probably more acceptable than jibes against ethnic groups outwith the UK. But these jokes are not racial, which is unacceptable but ethnic, and in that much of comedy today contains it because it is observational.
See Ricky Gervais, Billy Connolly and Jimmy Carr especially.

 

[Fergie 307]

There are socialist principles at work in the US. Collectives for example, as seen in farming markets.

Not sure what that has to do with US farms where there is no chance of people getting shot for not producing enough produce. In fact Fergie, theres a huge amount of info about it and youre generalizing and it was more down to drought and failed harvests.
Add to that the continuous war and removal of machinery to feed that.

Elsewhere that hasnt had any issue, runs from Israel, the US and Canada, India, and Mexico.

So using the brutal oppressive regime of the Soviets as your example is disingenuous to say the least.

It was intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek.
Most of the deaths actually took place well before the war started.
I think you could probably sum it up in the Soviet example as a case of pursuing the idea on an ideological basis, even though in their case it clearly wasn't working.

 

[Jake]

No lack of awareness here...

As someone who regards themselves as a Socialist, I think the salutary truth is that Socialism can have a very dark side to it, especially if there are no checks and balances. The National Socialist German Workers Party was based on socialist principals

Where have you got that ***** from? Hitler was a sworn enemy of socialism, and the Nazi party was right wing totalitarianism not left wing. The use of socialism in the party name was just to fool working class people that it was looking out for their interests, whereas Hitler's only real interest was keeping the elites around him happy (and races he didn't like, dying).

 

[TRITON]

It was intended to be somewhat tongue in cheek.
Most of the deaths actually took place well before the war started.
I think you could probably sum it up in the Soviet example as a case of pursuing the idea on an ideological basis, even though in their case it clearly wasn't working.

Actually Im going to blame the Americans as well as Russia for Socialism failing in Russia.

The constant battle of one needing to prove the other is a failed ideology and a series of 'races' The cold war, the arms race, even the space race.

But the blame lies mostly with the US.
What a world we could have had if not for the greed of capitalism. Which if you look around you it is pretty damn clear that the system of capitalism has led to boarded up shops and homes, a concentration of wealth in the hands of a few and little to no 'filtering down'.

The division between rich and poor is huge. Do you think its going to suddenly narrow ?, or grow worse and worse until ... We end up living in a completely dystopian future

These failures both in the US and the UK are not the fault of socialism,squarely, fully and most decidedly with the capitalism model, The fall out and deprivation has brought regular everyday people strive to make things better with food banks and now heat banks, and volunteering for SOCIAL projects that are there purely to help their fellow man.