Plane (and sharpening) training?

[bugbear]

There seems to be some confusion in this discussion.

To be explicit I assert:

* Trade sharpening was done freehand
* Old stones tend to be dished, at least in length
* bevels on old tools are rarely flat

However, I don't think this points to a long-lost or suppressed secret technique of round bevels.

Let's take a reasonable hypothesis, that the instructional texts by multiple experienced and knowledgeable authors were accurate, and see where it leads us.

The recommended sharpening technique is what we now call "double bevel", where a coarse abrasive, or even grinder, is used to remove material at a "low angle", say 25 degrees. This is the "primary bevel".

Honing, on a finer abrasive is done at a slightly steeper angle (30-ish), and is thus done on a small "secondary bevel" (plenty of diagrams on line).

The small size of the secondary bevel means that honing goes quickly, even when using fine abrasives. When the secondary bevel gets large, or steep, you just rework the primary a bit.

In all this the authors recommend keeping the bevel angle constant, or the hands at the same height throughout the stroke, which amounts to the same thing.

Now, in practise, keeping the angle constant when hand sharpening is quite tricky.

In practise, both the primary and secondary bevel angles can vary a bit. This doesn't really cause a problem, as long as the primary and secondary angles are a fair bit apart, and 5 degrees is normal practise (25 and 30).

Interestingly, since the secondary bevel is small, there's no need for a flat stone, longitudinally, since any curvature would have a minimal effect in such a short distance (aside - this is true for jigs too).

And the overall bevel would appear "not flat".

Gentles all - I put it to you that there is no conflict between the books and the evidence we see on old tools and stones. It's double bevel sharpening all the way.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.

Evidence, not assertions, please.

BugBear

I've seen the evidence. You haven't (or have failed to notice). So what?

BTW the familiar double bevel advice is good advice for a beginner and the text books are largely for beginners. But with more experience one finds one's own way - and you start to recognise it in other people's work or tools. You would too BB, if you did a little more woodwork and a little less theorising! It's never too late to start!

NB non of the old books mentions sharpening jigs. I wonder why?

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Had a quick google for a cartoon I once saw in a newspaper but couldn't find it so I'll paraphrase.
Wife "Come on darling turn the computer off and come to bed"
Husband "No, but, but, there's a man on the internet and he's WRONG"

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Or - don't argue on line with idiots you don't know. The best possible outcome is that you win an argument with an ***** you don't know.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Game set and match to Bugbear this time I'm afraid Jacob He's tied and trussed you up in a web of evidential fact that not even you can wriggle out of. Sorry old son. Having said that, I still agree that for the OP, the repeated learning of freehand sharpening is definitely a good idea, regardless of who is right and who is wrong historically.

These sharpening threads remind me of religious debates. Since nobody can prove anything, it just becomes one belief system butting up against another.
I think we should arrange a UKW boxing match between BB and Jacob. We could all pay a tenner to watch and make a mint for charity

 

[knockknock]

... Why would anybody go to the trouble of creating a flat bevel, freehand, when there is absolutely no point in it?

The viewpoint of an occasional hobby woodworker. I can register a flat bevel on a flat stone and get it sharp. This is similar to using a jig, but without the jig, plus I am matching the existing bevel.

Edit: OOPS, I was on the bottom of the previous page, oh well...

 

[D_W]

I would call it a single bevel with a bias...you cut the primary and then bias the fine stone at the edge of the bevel. The notion that it's hard to keep a consistent angle is not correct, though. It's easy to do that, but when you do it you don't know precisely what it is because it doesn't matter. You will naturally settle on an angle that results in a durable edge that isn't too hard to get through wood.

 

[G S Haydon]

Game set and match to Bugbear this time I'm afraid Jacob He's tied and trussed you up in a web of evidential fact that not even you can wriggle out of. Sorry old son. Having said that, I still agree that for the OP, the repeated learning of freehand sharpening is definitely a good idea, regardless of who is right and who is wrong historically.

These sharpening threads remind me of religious debates. Since nobody can prove anything, it just becomes one belief system butting up against another.
I think we should arrange a UKW boxing match between BB and Jacob. We could all pay a tenner to watch and make a mint for charity

Well I'll come off the subs bench and see what I can offer.

In Odate's book on Japanese tools he has a page showing the creation of a rounded bevel to give more support behind a tool with a brittle edge, something he mentions that could occur when a tool is new. I think he called it feathering out but I can't be sure without checking.

Lie Nielsen have a video showing the creation of a rounded bevel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo0IXn0pSic

Not all trade manuals talk about using a sequence of stones, some discuss using one. Latterly it was mainly an Washita or an India.

Planecraft by Record tools mentions how some tradesmen liked to hone a complete bevel.

Jim Kingshott mentions how some craftsmen did that as well

The guidance in books is not to round the edge over, in effect steepening to high 30's. Jacobs edges are not rounded over.

Jacob beats the freehand rounded drum pretty hard and sadly I think he might actually put some people off. However he does apply his methods and makes things to a high standard http://www.owdman.co.uk/furniture/shaker_table_1.jpg http://www.owdman.co.uk/

There is a guy called Warren Mickley in the US who maintains his tools with one bevel. I think he's studied Roubo's work and he works only with had tools.

Personally I don't give a darn about how someone does it, whatever is consistent and reliable for them. In my opinion, more important is evidence of application of method. On a recount I think it goes to Jacob :lol: No offense BB (hammer) :lol:

 

[graduate_owner]

Wow, what a can of worms!! Interesting though.
Coming back to my post about never getting really sharp chisels, I would like to thank all those who have offered advice. I shall indeed try a finer honing medium. I will probably continue with my Axminster jig for the moment (I bought this because my old Eclipse jig wouldn't grip firmer chisels, only bevel chisels, because of a groove in the sides).
Also I have a few really naff chisels which I intend to try to sharpen freehand and it won't matter if they end up worse than they already are if it turns out that the learning curve is longer than expected. Who knows - I may yet ditch the jig?

Just one other point, and I am not trying to create another contentious issue here but, what about honing on a polishing wheel? The reason I'm asking is I recently bought a Canning polisher. It's free standing and looks like a serious bit of kit. It's only 1 HP, 3 phase, but the motor housing is about 12" diameter and I think it will happily run all day. So would a sisal mop and some cutting compound give me a razor edge or would it be a waste of time? I have to find a use for this Canning - I bought it for £30 delivered so really couldn't turn it down.

K

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I would definitely encourage trying it with a bit of compound. I have a Tormek which I don't use very much any more but which has a leather stropping wheel for burr removal and polishing. What I've found is that once you have an edge sharp....you use it and dull it. If you bring that dull edge back to the honing wheel and give it a polish with some compound, you can tickle back the edge a few times before it needs to be reground. If you let it get really blunt that method doesn't work. So it seems to me that if the edge is already quite fine, the stropping method works, if the edge has rolled over considerably, the abrasive effect of the strop isn't coarse enough to restore it. So if you go little and often it's a super quick way of tickling back en edge.

 

[Zeddedhed]

Not sure what this adds to the discussion but here goes.

I have a variety of methods and combine the use of a Tormek, a Veritas Honing guide and freehand.

I tend to use the Tormek when things have got in bit of a state.

At the bench I flit between freehand (whilst working and trying to make money) and Jigged (when having a 'sharpening' session, usually of an evening or at the weekend - hobby time.)

The finest stone I have is a DMT 1000. I then strop onto a foot long length of leather belt glued to a block of wood. I sometimes remember to rub this with a mystery block of yellow stuff that came with a flex cut whittling knife.

The edge is always good enough to shave with and always good enough for the woodwork I do (which I do for a living).

I can never be bothered to do anything to the back of planes or chisels unless they are cratered like a pizza. Then I blast them on the edge of the Tormek wheel or give them a rub on a DMT XXX coarse stone.

I've never managed to achieve mirror like polishes on anything but can't see how it would make my life better.

Rounded, flat, primary, secondary, all just words to me. Dangerously pointy is my aim.

Maybe I could learn the way of the Jedi and go all the way to grits with loads of 00's and hone on a fossilised carrot whilst reciting some weird ju-ju but that would be for fun, not for woodwork.

 

[graduate_owner]

Ha, fossilsed carrot has never worked for me, but parsnip- now that's a different story.

K

 

[Zeddedhed]

Ha, fossilsed carrot has never worked for me, but parsnip- now that's a different story.

K

I'm pretty sure that if you check with Jacob he'll confirm that parsnip stropping is a new fangled invention that's totally unnecessary.

No one did it with any other root vegetable in the past - just carrots.

But hey, if you want to 'waste' your money on parsnips and the like go ahead. It won't make your edge any better.

Huh! Next thing you know they'll be suggesting swede or turnip. Pah!!

 

[Jacob]

Game set and match to Bugbear this time I'm afraid Jacob He's tied and trussed you up in a web of evidential fact that not even you can wriggle out of. ....

Really? I must have missed something.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Thought you might have ...

 

[griggs]

Fantastic to see generous offers of helping the OP with some one on one tuition which I'm sure will help him out.

I'm considering going to the Axminster sharpening course, has anyone been on it or recommend a better one?

Thanks

 

[G S Haydon]

Where are you based griggs?

 

[Jacob]

If you are anywhere near me you are welcome to drop in and I'll show you how to freehand on an oil stone. 10 minutes praps, doesn't take long to get the idea. By the time you've done it 10 times or so you would be an expert!

 

[griggs]

Where are you based griggs?

I'm in Sidmouth in East Devon. You?

 

[griggs]

If you are anywhere near me you are welcome to drop in and I'll show you how to freehand on an oil stone. 10 minutes praps, doesn't take long to get the idea. By the time you've done it 10 times or so you would be an expert!

Thank you for the kind offer Jacob, if ever I find myself up that way I'll be sure to contact you, always willing to learn something.