Plane (and sharpening) training?

[Trafalgar]

They're pretty much all AlOx in some binder or another, if not a natural stone. These of course by definition are essentially unchangeable, the skill is in the mining and relatively small amount of processing.

 

[D_W]

It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit.

c. And that it takes 3-10 minutes to sharpen a chisel.

I'd be intrigued and surprised to see a sharpening process that took 10 minutes. Fettling or renovation, yes, but not routine sharpening.

In the words of Wikipedia - citation needed.

BugBear

I don't know that anyone who mentions 10 minutes has put their method in video. One that is often linked is videos of k. tanaka (I think because people think it looks pretty).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QrnH53tTDs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mV9djHx17EQ

He's got several videos showing sharpening processes for a resharpening of a japanese plane iron that are in the range of 5-8 minutes.

And, for what it's worth, I've been poked with barbs for suggesting that from the time to take a plane apart to having it cutting wood again, it should be about two minutes - and the folks who have barbed me have mentioned 5-10 minutes, and suggested that sharpening in two minutes is just a party trick.

I have videoed it, though. I second what jacob says. If you do it long enough, we all pretty much end up in the same place (especially if using more than just flat blades, where you're forced to either put the jigs down or go nuclear in the level of fixtures needed to try to remove human subtle skill from sharpening things).

I see nakaoka's videos, and hold them up as a reason that I don't sharpen japanese planes traditionally, but I've noticed that when I've said that, most of the peanut gallery sides with the 8 minute sharpening routine.

 

[Jacob]

.....
I do not accept your argument that because woodworkers two or three generations ago used one method, it's the best for all of today's woodworkers. The world has moved on, there is now more choice, and today's woodworkers are perfectly entitled to exercise their right to choose.

It's one generation. Jigs were not widely used only 50 years ago - I was there! Most of the other techie stuff is much later. Yes they have the right to choose - and I have the right to suggest options they might like.

 

[Trafalgar]

If one rubs tool steel on some product harder than the steel, and does so with a relatively small amount of skill, a serviceable edge will be the result.

Anybody completely flummoxed by hand sharpening, even if they ultimately decide to use a jig for whatever reason, has likely found the wrong hobby. You'll need similar dexterity and attention to detail for plenty of other things. If you can't muster it at the sharpening bench, it's probably a lost cause.

And besides, everything you'll need to sharpen cannot always be jigged without ridiculous contortions or investment.

 

[bugbear]

Jigs were not widely used only 50 years ago - I was there!

I thought you learnt at college, in the 80's, to the plangent strains of Duran Duran...

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

.....
I do not accept your argument that because woodworkers two or three generations ago used one method, it's the best for all of today's woodworkers. The world has moved on, there is now more choice, and today's woodworkers are perfectly entitled to exercise their right to choose.

It's one generation. Jigs were not widely used only 50 years ago - I was there! Most of the other techie stuff is much later. Yes they have the right to choose - and I have the right to suggest options they might like.

Hmmm - 50 years sounds nearer two generations, but whatever....

The problem is that,when it comes to sharpening, you tend not to 'suggest'. The way in which you phrase your posts often comes across as something closer to 'dictate'. You have something of a tendency to sound sneery at other people's choices because they aren't sharpening the way you do - calling them "new sharpeners" and so on. It comes across as derogatory, unhelpful and offensive to some, which isn't really the general tone most people want on the forum - and it's a tone that invites lampooning.....

And Charles - I wasn't only thinking of jig/freehand - though that is also a matter for individual choice.

Edit to add - Sharpening is quite an important part of woodworking, and it deserves to be discussed - especially as a help to newcomers. It's hard to have sensible, informed debate about the advantages and disadvantages of the various different ways of going about it when conversations are derailed by the same very few people making derogatory comments about others' opinions and experiences. Sadly, I don't think this is the only forum suffering the malaise, and equally sadly, I don't realistically see it changing any time soon - but it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.

 

[Jacob]

......... it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.

It's difficult because the "normal" way of sharpening (yes it was normal) has been more or less expunged from the record. The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!
It's happened in other areas too - the "normal" bench which everybody used (and many still use) in Britain and the colonies, home, industry and schools, i.e. two beams and a well (or one beam, well and a rail) is completely overlooked - so much so that it doesn't even get a mention in several of the modern so-called work-bench books.
Or DT angles - 1/6 or 1/8 has become gospel even though in the real world nobody stuck to these rules
It's as though an unelected committee has been at work making decisions about this that and the other and is trying to coerce the rest of us into obedience.

 

[iNewbie]

......... it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.

It's difficult because the "normal" way of sharpening (yes it was normal) has been more or less expunged from the record. The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!
It's happened in other areas too - the "normal" bench which everybody used (and many still use) in Britain and the colonies, home, industry and schools, i.e. two beams and a well (or one beam, well and a rail) is completely overlooked - so much so that it doesn't even get a mention in several of the modern so-called work-bench books.
Or DT angles - 1/6 or 1/8 has become gospel even though in the real world nobody stuck to these rules
It's as though an unelected committee has been at work making decisions about this that and the other and is trying to coerce the rest of us into obedience.

Which is exactly what you yourself do. No different. (While typing how much time is wasted using a Jig you've wasted more time on rinse & repeat on said subject...)

You need an The End is Nigh board, Jacob.

 

[Jacob]

PS the bench is coming back though; Graham has an article here promoting a similar "normal" bench (and photographing the same page) which I have been going on about for years!
Paul Sellers has been doing his version too.

Nprmality returns! I think there is in general a move against the slicked up magazine and tool dealer version of woodworking which passes for normal, in favour of more traditional real world joinery.

 

[Kalimna]

I don't buy the 'because everyone did it 50 yea s ago, so it must be the best and only sensible way' argument. There are very good reasons why methods are prominent, and it tends to be because of options available. Maybe there weren't jigs around 50 years ago. But then, maybe most woodworkers were initially apprenticed, and not hobbyists. I have no doubt that freehand sharpening is, indeed, quicker than using a jig. But as a hobbyist with limited free time, and no mentor looking over my shoulder correcting mistakes, I have found such things as jigs and out-of-the-box-ready tools invaluable. This way I can get on with the business of mangling wood safe in the knowledge that my skill, not my tools, is the limiting factor.
Jigs offer repeatability and consistency, especially for the beginner (or old hand) or part-time hobbyist. It is not a question of being flummoxed, and in need of a new hobby (itself a phrase loaded with sneer and not becoming the polite forum this tends to be), rather seeking the most efficient route to the end product. This route being different for different people, with differing experience and free time.

Adam S

 

[Andy Kev.]

......... it would be nice, just now and again, to see and participate in a sensible conversation about the subject in which all respect others' views.

It's difficult because the "normal" way of sharpening (yes it was normal) has been more or less expunged from the record. The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!
It's happened in other areas too - the "normal" bench which everybody used (and many still use) in Britain and the colonies, home, industry and schools, i.e. two beams and a well (or one beam, well and a rail) is completely overlooked - so much so that it doesn't even get a mention in several of the modern so-called work-bench books.
Or DT angles - 1/6 or 1/8 has become gospel even though in the real world nobody stuck to these rules
It's as though an unelected committee has been at work making decisions about this that and the other and is trying to coerce the rest of us into obedience.

For what it's worth, I've come to the conclusion that you're both right and wrong, although probably a bit more right than wrong and that is for the following reasons.

To the beginner sharpening can be a daunting thing. It certainly was for me. I tried free hand and mangled chisels, the secondary bevel ending up anything but square to the longitudinal axis of the blade. What a godsend the Veritas guide was! It instantly conferred on me the ability to sharpen anything 100% bang on and repeatedly so. This relieved me of something that was starting to become dispiriting and so I could concentrate on more important things i.e. those tasks directly involved with sorting out wood e.g. planing and sawing.

However, partly influenced by your remarks, I persisted with the occasional go at hand sharpening, using a couple of cheap and nasty chisels from the local DIY market. I'm now content to hand sharpen anything 3/8" or wider by hand although I occasionally revert to the guide if I want to grind back to the primary bevel. For some reason spoke shave blades were dead easy by hand from the word go. I still do low angle plane blades with the guide.

The reason for all this is simple: had I known somebody who could take me through this in the way that say an apprentice or trainee is taught, I can imagine never having bothered with a honing guide but when you are learning everything alone with your sources of guidance being books, DVDs and the internet, a bit of mechanical help is a very beneficial thing. I will continue to use my guide where experience, common sense and ability tell me I need to while being happy to increasingly sharpen freehand and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a guide to anybody who is in the position I was in two years ago (that new Lie-Neilsen one looks like the mutt's nuts by the way).

So while I think you are right to continue your crusade in the name of a genuine craftsman's skill and while in general terms I accept your scepticism about marketing things which people can get by without, I suggest to you that there are circumstances where a honing guide is a valuable if not vital tool. I wonder if you can accept that point?

 

[Jacob]

....I suggest to you that there are circumstances where a honing guide is a valuable if not vital tool. I wonder if you can accept that point?

yes steel rebate or shoulder planes seem to need to be spot on, but you can still get it wrong with a jig - perfect edge but 3º out of square etc. So it's still viable freehand, checking often with a square.

NB we learned to sharpen at school. It was just taken for granted like sharpening a pencil, with about the same level if difficulty.

 

[D_W]

I'll summarize what I've seen as this:
* beginners tend not to do freehand - that's understandable
* people who teach beginners often teach something much different than what a long-time amateur or a professional would do
* a group of sharpeners that is professional and that uses hand tools significantly enough to have to sharpen several times a day, *especially* if they are carving, will tend to do most or all things freehand

I can identify with what Jacob says (Charley probably says it, too). I was a beginner and a mark for jigs and fast cutting stones. Ultimately, I found it faster to go without both. I think most people will, too.

The instructors who tend too get sunk in deep against the feel sharpener (the person who can pick up anything and put it to a stone freehand) seems to me is usually out of the context of getting much work done and needs to defend what they're teaching their students (and it's perfectly fine for students to get specific measurements and use a guide).

If someone has been woodworking for 10 years and has aspirations to make anything decent, I agree 100% with charley that they have bigger problems than just sharpening if the have failed repeatedly at developing the touch to sharpen freehand. Sorry to break kayfabe and agree with you Charley!

The idea that there's much on the market that is a legitimate improvement in the context of woodworking is pretty silly. There is an improvement in some cases for beginners (planes that you can drop, planes where you can shut the mouth and not learn to use a cap iron, irons that wear slowly so the slow-sharpening beginner can go for a while).

I'd mention chisels, but I'd bet a woodworker with 10 years of hand building experience can get the edge on a stanley chisel to last longer than the average newbie can get some powder metal chisel to last.

 

[D_W]

....I suggest to you that there are circumstances where a honing guide is a valuable if not vital tool. I wonder if you can accept that point?

yes steel rebate or shoulder planes seem to need to be spot on, but you can still get it wrong with a jig - perfect edge but 3º out of square etc. So it's still viable freehand, checking often with a square.

Rebate and skew planes are the greatest case for freehand honing and not ever allowing the edge to be completely removed from one sharpening to the next. The blade as it's working in the plane tells us everything we need to know about what to do when honing the next time.

Someone using a guide is more likely to have trouble applying touch to keep the iron right on where it should be.

 

[Jacob]

..
* beginners tend not to do freehand - that's understandable......

Only because (in recent years) they are discouraged and told that it's difficult. In fact it is the easiest way. As I said - it's been expunged from the record!

 

[Trafalgar]

1) There is a minutely and barely rebuttable presumption that the way "it" was done when most woodworking, or at least a whole lot of it, was still done by hand is at its essence the correct way to do it.

2) There are few reasons for an amateur not to do it as the pros suggest. What was being imparted in virtually all of the classic manuals on woodworking (the majority of which are British) is how the work was actually accomplished in a professional setting, though clearly in the introduction to these books the amateur was mentioned as the target audience. There are not 'two separate sets of rules.' Logically, why would there be? There are a few exceptions -- on the whole, not enough to worry about. The early-on use of a simple (with the emphasis on simple) jig for sharpening is perhaps one. Why? Again, because there is a whole raft of cutters than cannot be readily or easily jigged even today, much less 'back then.' The cord has to be cut at some point or flounder in your own shop with a very limited set of tools that can be kept sharp on your own.

People with an outsized penchant for tools don't need to worry about any of it. It doesn't apply.

People hell-bent on reinventing the wheel or thinking that a relatively minor innovation here or there has somehow changed the game are missing the mark in my opinion.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

There y' go Sploo....so that's all clear then right

 

[G S Haydon]

There y' go Sploo....so that's all clear then right

:lol: :lol:

Hope you have fun Sploo, a bit of one on one time will be great. Thanks for the link Jacob . I think broadly it is likely that if someone sticks at this for a while they'll go to freehand. It's not a must, it may not ever be required but straight plane irons and chisels don't take too much effort to get the hang of.

If someone were wanting to get started a cheap eclipse guide clone for a few £/$ would be a great place to start. When starting out it will cover bench chisels and plane irons well. By the time the experience has lead someone to different projects It's likely people will migrate to freehand.

But to each there own.

 

[Bm101]

*Dips toe in the water.
I've been 'working with tools' my whole life. I've been a hard landscaper, drystone waller, I've worked on building sites as a labourer, I worked with lots of small building firms as a young fella where I've done everything from being on the mixer to progressing onto watching and learning whichever proper trade came in. I learnt enough in a couple of hours helping out the tiler or the chippy hanging doors that I'd be doing it the next day with the subby. Not as fast but fast enough....

As your man Confucius said, 'I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.' I've lived my life as far as possible with an enquiring and open mind.

For the last 15 years odd I've been hanging off big buildings as an abseiler. No relevance except that Iv'e been in a game long enough that has seen drastic changes. When I started we were few and far between. You rarely saw another rope access team. I've worked on the pyramid of 1 Canada Square (Canary Wharf), Lloyds of London doing 4 hour drops to clean the liftshafts, City Hall, the new one. You name it and I've probably done it (in London). (No not, the Shard and I don't fancy it either before you ask.)
The point I'm making is that years back it was all fresh. Now, suddenly I'm the old fella. Ive done my Level 3, the highest qualification (you have to retest every 3 years), 3 times. I see kids coming into it that don't have a clue. I school them along the lines of, 'youve been doing this just long enought to kill yourself with complete confidence'. I remember every bloke I worked with who shared his knowledge with no jealousy and I try to do the same with these kids who I'd like to see go home safe at the end of the day.

So what am I rambling about?
When I started getting more interested in working with wood (seriously) I started going down the route of youtube videos, I bought a few tools some used and some not. I did my research. Tbh I already had a shed full of tools. My interest is primarily in getting good enough to work on the stuff for my house I'm doing up. An oak porch, a new bench to build. A roubo style bench appeals to me. Like it or not. To me it's not a bloody fashion statement it's just summat I'd like to build and own and use. I made one bad decision and bought a veritas iron for my cheap 5 1/2 record. Lesson learnt.

I don't understand the mindset that states there is only one way to do anything.

I bought a veritas jig and I bought various wet n dry grades and a 2 waterstones. Ive honed the new tools and sharpened the old. If I had the confidence to do it by hand I would have done. But I didn't. Now I have sharp tools . Whats the issue?

Apologies to the OP who just wanted a sharpening answer.
What I don't understand though is this. Some will go out their way to help. Some seem desperate to alienate those with less experience. In the end ain't we all trying to fight the good fight? If I had the confidence and ability to sharpen by hand I would, at some point i'll learn. But sometimes it takes time and growing confidence to learn those skills. Apologies for any blather and I'm not directing this at anyone in particular just to a certain mindset. Take Care

(edit I'm a bit hungry and tired, i dont mean to be grumpy it just seems to happen of its own accord sometimes.)

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

well said that man.