Plane (and sharpening) training?

[bugbear]

With narrow chisels, it's best to use just the pull stroke to avoid digging in but with wide chisels and plane blades I find it OK to push and pull. I use a honing guide - just bought the new Lie Nielsen, which really is the dogs whatsits 8)

That sounds pretty much what I'd guessed; conversely and certainly soft sharpening media, push strokes and freehand make a poor combination.

I suspect if you ground the secondary to zero, you might still get a dig in though, but there's never a need to grind away the whole secondary.

BugBear

 

[sploo]

Drop me a pm with your batphone number and we can sort something out. Cheers.

PM sent!

Hi Sploo. Like most mortal woodworkers, I've been looking for that 'perfect' edge for a while now too...

I think part of the problem is that I don't use the hand plane or chisels very often, so it's difficult to justify the space or investment in much sharpening gear; though obviously a blunt tool is a useless tool, so if you're keeping them you do need to do some sharpening.

The scary sharpening system is new to me, and interesting - especially as a set of Japanese waterstones wouldn't really make sense given the little use they'd get.

Having see a (Robert Sorby?) chisel grinding system that's basically a sander, it occurs to me that my 12" disc sander could possibly be used for the rare grinding application. The India stone I have is indeed not really that fine so it had occurred to me it's not ideal for finishing.

I think a lot of the issue is knowing what bevel (and how much) to put on a blade, and then how much (and what) secondary, and just good technique for doing the sharpening. I do find the honing guide cumbersome, but then how do you accurately put on the secondary bevel? Or is it not always required?

 

[Jacob]

.....The India stone I have is indeed not really that fine so it had occurred to me it's not ideal for finishing.

It's probably perfectly OK. It's all anybody used to use, more or less, until all this modern techno sharpening got fashionable

I think a lot of the issue is knowing what bevel (and how much) to put on a blade, and then how much (and what) secondary, and just good technique for doing the sharpening. I do find the honing guide cumbersome, but then how do you accurately put on the secondary bevel? Or is it not always required?

30º edge for just about everything.
This can be flat (no secondary bevel), or rounded off to a lower angle, or double bevelled with a 2nd bevel. NB 2ary bevel does not need to be accurate, it only needs to be less than the edge bevel, so an edge at 30º would be fine with a 2ary bevel anything from 29º to say 20º

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I've pm'd you back Sploo.

I agree with Jacob also about the tolerances. So much gets talked about in regard to very specific angles. My experience of talking and working with professional carpenters and wood turners is that none of them give a monkeys within about 5 degrees of tolerance. 25 to 30 degrees is the general standard for almost anything and you might need to get a bit more retentive if you're planing very tricky woods like rippled sycamore or other brittle or prone to tearout boards but for right now, 25-30 is easily good enough. What's important is the edge is sharp enough and that you keep it sharp.

 

[bugbear]

So much gets talked about in regard to very specific angles. My experience of talking and working with professional carpenters and wood turners is that none of them give a monkeys within about 5 degrees of tolerance.

The actual angle doesn't matter much, but if you can sharpen at exactly the same angle every time (which almost certainly implies some "mechanical help" :wink: ) it minimises the amount of metal removal to be done.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

... if you can sharpen at exactly the same angle every time (which almost certainly implies some "mechanical help" .....

No mechanical help needed. If you are too shallow you don't get a burr. If you are about right and still not getting a burr you need to back off the bevel a bit at a shallower angle and try again. It really is not a problem, but a jig turns it into one - mainly because the existing edge has to match exactly the stone . If not you will have to remove more metal to get a good fit, or flatten the stone, then do it again every time you sharpen etc. etc. and you are on the slippery slope to sharpening madness :roll:

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The Jacob school of sharpening will be opening a branch in the back of every Starbucks from next month......don't be blunt.......stay sharp

 

[bugbear]

... if you can sharpen at exactly the same angle every time (which almost certainly implies some "mechanical help" .....

No mechanical help needed. If you are too shallow you don't get a burr. If you are about right and still not getting a burr you need to back off the bevel a bit at a shallower angle and try again. It really is not a problem, but a jig turns it into one - mainly because the existing edge has to match exactly the stone . If not you will have to remove more metal to get a good fit, or flatten the stone, then do it again every time you sharpen etc. etc. and you are on the slippery slope to sharpening madness :roll:

The sharpening process with a jig which you point out the difficulties of is purely a creation of your own fevered imagination. (*)

Actual sharpening with a jig is simple, quick, effective, reliable and gives excellent edges every time which is why so many people do it.

BugBear

(*)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Jacob]

The Jacob school of sharpening will be opening a branch in the back of every Starbucks from next month......don't be blunt.......stay sharp

I claim no credit!
It's how everybody sharpened, world wide, since the beginning of time.
It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit. Neither of these things is true.

 

[D_W]

It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit.

c. And that it takes 3-10 minutes to sharpen a chisel.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The Jacob school of sharpening will be opening a branch in the back of every Starbucks from next month......don't be blunt.......stay sharp

I claim no credit!
It's how everybody sharpened, world wide, since the beginning of time.

Are you saying that you knap your own flints for woodworking tools, or that being a Derbyshire lad you rub your tool on a handy piece of (fairly) local Millstone Grit to get it sharp?

'Since the beginning of time' is a fair old while ago. It may be that for some people, technology has moved on a bit. Hell, some of us have even gone so modern as to adopt man-made oilstones....

 

[lurker]

Ooo goody!
Sploo's innocent request for help has turned into another sharpening slanging match.

 

[sploo]

Ooo goody!
Sploo's innocent request for help has turned into another sharpening slanging match.

If there's one thing you can be sure of on the Internet: people will sling monkey poop at one another at the slightest opportunity :wink:

 

[n0legs]

people will sling monkey poop at one another at the slightest opportunity :wink:

I miss the days of throwing punches.

 

[D_W]

people will sling monkey poop at one another at the slightest opportunity :wink:

I miss the days of throwing punches.

In my youth, it was morning stars. Er wait, that's what my dad told me.

I think it was the mace by the time I was old enough to walk.

 

[bugbear]

It's only recently that new woodworkers have been persuaded, a. that it's difficult, and b. they need to buy a lot of kit.

c. And that it takes 3-10 minutes to sharpen a chisel.

I'd be intrigued and surprised to see a sharpening process that took 10 minutes. Fettling or renovation, yes, but not routine sharpening.

In the words of Wikipedia - citation needed.

BugBear

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Chaps...lets not start please!!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

There are quite a few different ways to get a woodworking edge tool sharp enough for the work it's intended to do. There are electric grinders with wheels and/or abrasive belts, hand-crank grinders and wet-stone slow-speed grinders. Some people use flat coarse abrasives, and rub by hand. For honing, there are oilstones, waterstones, ceramic stones, diamond stones and abrasive papers and lapping films ('scary sharp'). There are leather strops and wooden strops which can be dressed with fine abrasives or used undressed. Sharpening can be done freehand or using jigs. All those methods work, or they wouldn't be used. All those methods have advantages and disadvantages, and different people find the methods that suit them best; the advantages that suit them, and the disadvantages they can live with. There's no single perfect method that suits everyboby all the time, or we'd all be using it.

One of the problems for the newcomer is that of finding the method that suits their particular set of circumstances; confusion about all the conflicting advice is entirely understandable. Another is a perfectly understandable lack of confidence in what they're currently doing. It does take a bit of time and effort to overcome those problems, but rest assured that there is a way for anybody to keep their tools in good working order without too much fuss. There's a bit of a learning curve, but then there is with almost all things.

Most old hands have their set ways of sharpening that suits them. The vast majority are wise enough to accept that what suits them might not suit the next person, and offer their thoughts and advice with that in mind. Sadly, there are one or two of a mindset that their way is 'right', and that any other way is therefore 'wrong', and involves 'stuff you don't need'. However much the more broad-minded have pointed out that there are more ways than one to sharpen a woodworking tool, they still persist in banging on about their way being the only one worth consideration. That doesn't help the confused newcomer at all - it just makes a confusing subject even more confusing. For the regular reader, it becomes tiresome; eventually, it just becomes ripe for lampooning.

Sploo - you are doing the right thing by having a chat with Matthew and Bob. You will also do the right thing if you comletely disregard all the daft arguments about sharpening that keep cropping up. Once you've found what works for you (and you will!) then just ignore all the noise - and especially ignore anything that tells you you're doing it all wrong!

 

[Jacob]

.
Most old hands have their set ways of sharpening that suits them. ...

My point is - most old hands had roughly the same basic way of sharpening, namely freehand on a natural or synthetic oil stone or two, with occasional (not essential) help from a grindstone. Many still do this and it is still the simplest, cheapest etc. etc.
Nothing to stop anyone going down the modern techno sharpening way if that's really what they want, but they should be under no illusions; it is by no means essential and has a considerable number of drawbacks, not least the expense.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

.
Most old hands have their set ways of sharpening that suits them. ...

My point is - most old hands had roughly the same basic way of sharpening, namely freehand on a natural or synthetic oil stone or two, with occasional (not essential) help from a grindstone. Many still do this and it is still the simplest, cheapest etc. etc.
Nothing to stop anyone going down the modern techno sharpening way if that's really what they want, but they should be under no illusions; it is by no means essential and has a considerable number of drawbacks, not least the expense.

You're using the term 'old hand' to mean someone working wood two or three generations ago or earlier, when the choices of sharpening medium were fewer than today - so of course they used oilstones, because that's all there was.

I was using the tem 'old hand' to mean someone currently working wood, in an amateur or professional capacity, for a couple of years or more. There are now more methods of sharpening available than there were several generations ago, and many current woodworkers have taken advantage of those technical developments.

I do not accept your argument that because woodworkers two or three generations ago used one method, it's the best for all of today's woodworkers. The world has moved on, there is now more choice, and today's woodworkers are perfectly entitled to exercise their right to choose.