Paul Sellers video

[Trafalgar]

The Veritas planing stops are excellent to use and very solid with only 5mm projection above the bench top. But if you don't mind nailing or screwing lathes to your bench top you can do with out them, but I won't be going back.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Peter

Going back too.....?? What arrangement did you use before these?

 

[KevM]

Jacob,
I tend to agree, but the whole thread has careered off-topic; for my money there's nothing wrong with either approach but sticking solely to one side is a classic false dilemma

 

[Trafalgar]

I think the whole point of the original post is being missed; that there are craft processes and things you can do for yourself which might radically improve your working life or your product, without costing much, if anything. These are empowering, capacity building, skill developing, whatever you want to call it.
It seems a pity to give up and find ourselves having to contemplate yet another expensive gadget from gadget central. Bloody boring in fact!

Well said Jacob.

 

[woodbrains]

I think the whole point of the original post is being missed; that there are craft processes and things you can do for yourself which might radically improve your working life or your product, without costing much, if anything. These are empowering, capacity building, skill developing, whatever you want to call it.
It seems a pity to give up and find ourselves having to contemplate yet another expensive gadget from gadget central. Bloody boring in fact!

Hello,

Does this mean, If I posted a picture of my bench, totally hand made by me, using the minimum of tools and equipment, totally fit for purpose, and anyone here would prefer it over the one in Sellers video (I guarantee it) you would not start tearing strips of me. I think not. #-o

Mike.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

the thing is Jacob. It's a perfectly valid opinion isn't it? Your opinion is equally....perfectly valid. Really and truly BOTH perspectives have merit because not everybody values the same things. I find it slightly odd that you appear not to see that. I genuinely understand your defending the skill development side of the craft and I think it is a noble crusade on many levels but surely you must also glimpse the occasional positive side of the labour saving of some of the gadgets? I mean, really?

Take my attitude to sharpening for example. I honestly really get why you defend the manual by hand approach because it is a fabulously useful skill to have. I think any woodworker denying that would possibly have missed a fundamental building block. But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? Isn't that a genuine situation where the innovation is actually a more intelligent means of solving the problem of getting back to woodworking? And therefore has legitimate merit?

 

[Trafalgar]

the thing is Jacob. It's a perfectly valid opinion isn't it? Your opinion is equally....perfectly valid. Really and truly BOTH perspectives have merit because not everybody values the same things. I find it slightly odd that you appear not to see that. I genuinely understand your defending the skill development side of the craft and I think it is a noble crusade on many levels but surely you must also glimpse the occasional positive side of the labour saving of some of the gadgets? I mean, really?

Take my attitude to sharpening for example. I honestly really get why you defend the manual by hand approach because it is a fabulously useful skill to have. I think any woodworker denying that would possibly have missed a fundamental building block. But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? Isn't that a genuine situation where the innovation is actually a more intelligent means of solving the problem of getting back to woodworking? And therefore has legitimate merit?

The part missing from all of this is what people were using before they bought the Lee Valley whim-whams. What wasn't working? How long had the previous solution been in place? What prompted the shopping spree? I'm fascinated by the fact that experienced woodworkers were in the market for bench-battens in the first place. If pressed, I would have assumed that solutions had been in place in respective individuals' shops for decades, and that they worked.

Lee Valley comes out with this stuff, I see people gushing, and the first thing that pops into my mind is "what in God's name have you been using all this time?" This is especially true for these little tchotchkes that provide some basic function like a batten. Mystifying.

 

[Jacob]

...But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? ....

Yes I use a Sorby Proedge. Previously it was a belt sander - but always the risk of setting fire to it. If I had to do it by hand alone I'd use 60 grit wet n dry well flooded with liquid (any liquid will do).
The reason for avoiding crazy sharpening techniques (jigs etc) is that trad sharpening is quicker, cheaper and easier. Nothing luddite or anti-innovation about it.
No mystical ideology involved - it's just about getting things done easily and quickly.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

yeah I think in the case of this particular device I don't have a comment because I've never used one. I was being more generic about the perennial discussions we seem to have of traditional approach versus gadgets. It just seems to me its a circular argument when the truth probably lies in the acceptance that both approaches have some merit depending on the circumstances. Certainly where sharpening is concerned.

I certainly think it pays for buyers to be judicious about what gadgets they buy and it is of course in the fiscal interest of manufacturers to persuade us we need all manner of solutions when often a bag of old nails and some common sense is really the best approach.

For me the credibility of the only do it the traditional way gets subverted when it gets a bit too dogmatic that's all.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

...But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? ....

Yes I use a Sorby Proedge. Previously it was a belt sander - but always the risk of setting fire to it. If I had to do it by hand alone I'd use 60 grit wet n dry well flooded with liquid (any liquid will do).
The reason for avoiding crazy sharpening techniques (jigs etc) is that trad sharpening is quicker, cheaper and easier. Nothing luddite or anti-innovation about it.
No mystical ideology involved - it's just about getting things done easily and quickly.

Right.....I'm rather surprised. Pleasantly so in fact I'm glad you've got a PE Jacob, so you're clearly not altogether opposed to modern innovations when they're obviously useful. Out of interest, what tipped your decision to the PE? Was it sore fingers, speed...what? I'm just interested to understand what the driver would need to be for you to feel the innovation is justified?

 

[Trafalgar]

yeah I think in the case of this particular device I don't have a comment because I've never used one. I was being more generic about the perennial discussions we seem to have of traditional approach versus gadgets. It just seems to me its a circular argument when the truth probably lies in the acceptance that both approaches have some merit depending on the circumstances. Certainly where sharpening is concerned.

I certainly think it pays for buyers to be judicious about what gadgets they buy and it is of course in the fiscal interest of manufacturers to persuade us we need all manner of solutions when often a bag of old nails and some common sense is really the best approach.

For me the credibility of the only do it the traditional way gets subverted when it gets a bit too dogmatic that's all.

True and depending on personalities it sometimes makes sense for one's bench not to be their magnum opus. They aren't Georgian dining tables. A bench isn't supposed to dictate terms to its owner.

I was looking through Mike Dunbar's windsor chair making book early this morning (to solve an unrelated issue) and his bench is euphemistically 'very well used.' It definitely had had the Art Carpenter treatment applied to it.

 

[Jacob]

...But, then comes your horribly dinged chisel that hit a nail and the dent is so big you're going to have to regrind the bevel and its going to take ages. You know your fingers are going to ache like stink at the end of it. In THAT scenario, surely you would be glad of a simple abrasive belt gadget that allowed you to regrind the bevel removing lots of steel quickly? ....

Yes I use a Sorby Proedge. Previously it was a belt sander - but always the risk of setting fire to it. If I had to do it by hand alone I'd use 60 grit wet n dry well flooded with liquid (any liquid will do).
The reason for avoiding crazy sharpening techniques (jigs etc) is that trad sharpening is quicker, cheaper and easier. Nothing luddite or anti-innovation about it.
No mystical ideology involved - it's just about getting things done easily and quickly.

Right.....I'm rather surprised. Pleasantly so in fact I'm glad you've got a PE Jacob, so you're clearly not altogether opposed to modern innovations when they're obviously useful. Out of interest, what tipped your decision to the PE? Was it sore fingers, speed...what? I'm just interested to understand what the driver would need to be for you to feel the innovation is justified?

Of course I'm not altogether opposed to modern innovations when they're obviously useful - I'm using a computer here, not doing this by semaphore!

Grinding and shaping by hand is hard work, especially if you try to use a (wheeled) jig as you can't put your weight on it the same way as freehand. Though a blade holder can help - basically a jig without wheels - a piece of 2x2" with a saw kerf to hold plane blade, or a bolt through to hold it on. You can really give it some pressure then.
I don't like bench grinders - too small diameter, nasty rough grind, more nibbling then grinding, and the risk of over heating. So I used a belt sander. Cooler cut, nicely controlled bevel. Rounded bevel helps avoid overheating - you dip the blade same as for oil stone sharpening. But the sparks blast around and impact on the case, or deposits of sawdust, with a real fire hazard. I caught mine smouldering after I had switched off.
So went for the Pro-edge. Open structure is less fire risk and the whole tool is well thought out and put together. There are cheaper linishers which probably do just as well.

It's not about innovation versus tradition - it's about the infatuation with novelties and the lack of appreciation (or sheer ignorance) of the power and capabilities of many trad methods.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Good man. Glad to hear it. So its gimmicks that get your back up rather then useful innovation. And particularly gimmicks which replace a perfectly acceptable existing method?

 

[Selwyn]

I have to say Jacob talks some sense. As does Sellers.

Simple, innovative, frugal, repeatable techniques and methods of work bring far more to the amateur woodworker than feeling insecure because you haven't got the latest gadget.

That's not a criticism of using quality tools etc. but its just about giving people confidence about what they can achieve whilst developing skills.

 

[MIGNAL]

I see the 'buy the most expensive gear' idea on many other forums. It kind of gives the impression that nothing of any quality can be done unless you have the latest, most expensive . . . (insert virtually anything!).
Sometimes the answer to a problem is very simple, yet certain folk have it in their heads that the answer needs to be both complex and expensive. Quite often there's a very low tech, simple answer staring them right in the face but they simply refuse to acknowledge it.
I'm certainly not against people buying expensive stuff. After all most of it is super quality and nice to own. I just feel that the alternative approach needs to be aired, just to ensure that the idea that quality work can be done with much cheaper (sometimes simpler) options. If you have 10 celebrity woodworkers (like celebrity chefs!) all ramming Lie nielsen tools down our throats you can quickly get the impression that it's the ONLY way to go. It needs some balance bringing to the proceedings.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Balance is an interesting choice of words

 

[bugbear]

I see the 'buy the most expensive gear' idea on many other forums. It kind of gives the impression that nothing of any quality can be done unless you have the latest, most expensive . . . (insert virtually anything!).
Sometimes the answer to a problem is very simple, yet certain folk have it in their heads that the answer needs to be both complex and expensive. Quite often there's a very low tech, simple answer staring them right in the face but they simply refuse to acknowledge it.
I'm certainly not against people buying expensive stuff. After all most of it is super quality and nice to own. I just feel that the alternative approach needs to be aired, just to ensure that the idea that quality work can be done with much cheaper (sometimes simpler) options. If you have 10 celebrity woodworkers (like celebrity chefs!) all ramming Lie nielsen tools down our throats you can quickly get the impression that it's the ONLY way to go. It needs some balance bringing to the proceedings.

I think it's worth pointing out that gadgets can be further split into two classes - factory made and quite possibly expensive, and homemade and usually cheap. But they're both gadgets.

For homemade gadgets, Robert Wearing has a whole book of 'em (he calls them "devices"), which is rather fun.

(it may surprise some people that I have very, very few expensive new gadgets. Most of my nice, factory
made gadgets are spotted s/h and very cheap, often in need of some restoration)

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I see the 'buy the most expensive gear' idea on many other forums. It kind of gives the impression that nothing of any quality can be done unless you have the latest, most expensive . . . (insert virtually anything!). .....

One result is that you get a lot of people who having bought the bling are disappointed not to find an immediate improvement in their woodwork output. In fact a lot of the stuff doesn't get used at all. Look at all the offers of posh planes, matching chisel sets; "as new in box" etc. not to mention the difficulties of "innovative" sharpening techniques.

I can think of several videos from "celebrity woodworkers" where they clearly haven't the faintest idea how to do whatever it is properly. This is why they find Paul Sellers so annoying! I think they want to make things seem difficult so they can be seen as offering (selling) solutions.

 

[bugbear]

I can think of several videos from "celebrity woodworkers" where they clearly haven't the faintest f***in idea how to do whatever it is properly. This is why they find Paul Sellers so annoying! I think they want to make things seem difficult so they can be seen as offering (selling) solutions.

I don't recall any "celebrity woodworkers" complaining about Sellers, or finding him annoying. Name/evidence please?

BugBear

 

[Harbo]

So according to certain people on here, nothing new would be innovated, created, developed, invented etc etc? Instead everything would be "traditional", S/H, recycled, restored etc etc. the Green Party would love it but not the world's economy?
What annoys me is the people who continually bang on about how we should spend our money, implying that we don't have the intelligence to make up our own minds.
Also certain people seem to have it in for companies like Lee Valley and fall over themselves criticising their products as gimmicks etc and asserting that they are complete waste of monies.
We can all decide on our own without this constant carping.

It's a pity that these firms and "celebrities " cannot sue for internet deformation, then we might get constructive criticism in a fair way, not somebodies biased vitriol ?


Rod

 

[Trafalgar]

So according to certain people on here, nothing new would be innovated, created, developed, invented etc etc? Instead everything would be "traditional", S/H, recycled, restored etc etc. the Green Party would love it but not the world's economy?
What annoys me is the people who continually bang on about how we should spend our money, implying that we don't have the intelligence to make up our own minds.
Also certain people seem to have it in for companies like Lee Valley and fall over themselves criticising their products as gimmicks etc and asserting that they are complete waste of monies.
We can all decide on our own without this constant carping.

It's a pity that these firms and "celebrities " cannot sue for internet deformation, then we might get constructive criticism in a fair way, not somebodies biased vitriol ?


Rod

They actually can sue for such a thing in certain limited circumstances, but in pretrial discovery they would have to disclose how they themselves use active internet forum participants to market their goods. I suspect, though I cannot say for sure, that it is a bit more unseemly than most would imagine. Just a thought. One's own dirty laundry often gets aired in a courtroom.