Corneel
Established Member
Jacob":24y8dncv said:
Maybe, not a bad idea at all, but I'm the kind of guy who would loose them too soon when they aren't firmly attached to the bench. Don't worry, I'll cobble up something, which is half the fun anyway.
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Maybe, not a bad idea at all, but I'm the kind of guy who would loose them too soon when they aren't firmly attached to the bench. Don't worry, I'll cobble up something, which is half the fun anyway.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
I don't know why anyone would pay for the Veritas things. I don't know why anyone would pay for a bench hook. I don't know why people pay for Blue spruce chisels when you can get I. Sorby's and W&P's for £3 or £4. I don't know why people would wish to put nails in their benches. I don't know why anyone would buy a bradawl.
But they don't have to justify themselves to me, any more than I have to justify my apparent eccentricities and behavioural quirks to them. We're all different. Whatever gets you through the night.
But they don't have to justify themselves to me, any more than I have to justify my apparent eccentricities and behavioural quirks to them. We're all different. Whatever gets you through the night.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Vaguely parallel lines - I'm into cycling. They are into innovation in a big way.
They change words in a similar fashion - crazy sharpeners call blade faces the "back" (it's like a secret handshake :shock: ). Crazy cyclist call drinking "hydration". You can buy a lot of kit to help with "hydration".
You get queries on cycling forums such as "I'm planning a 50 mile training run and am wondering about hydration". I usually reply that unless its extremely hot/hilly you don't need "hydration" at all in 50 miles but it's nice to have a drink - stop half way at a pub and have a pint of beer.
They change words in a similar fashion - crazy sharpeners call blade faces the "back" (it's like a secret handshake :shock: ). Crazy cyclist call drinking "hydration". You can buy a lot of kit to help with "hydration".
You get queries on cycling forums such as "I'm planning a 50 mile training run and am wondering about hydration". I usually reply that unless its extremely hot/hilly you don't need "hydration" at all in 50 miles but it's nice to have a drink - stop half way at a pub and have a pint of beer.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Corneel":2pxwx22d said:
Just a thought - you could make the dogs sort of coffin shaped, that would give you two different heights with the same dog.
Edit - If you put a longer set screw through the wooden face of the vice, to leave an inch protruding on the back you could put a steel "button" on the stud with a wingnut. I can't visualise it as I have no access to a vice at the moment, so feel free to tell me it won't work.
All these issues were solved a long, long time ago with different thickness battens. Lee Valley is kindly providing the exact same solution though one that requires a woodworker do no woodworking. :roll: To make a few battens. Aren't some already lying about the shop?
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":2ie8l7r9 said:
Some people call a simple full size plan a "rod".
Very confusing.
BugBear
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Actually when I did A level (1972) it was always the "back" of a chisel. I never thought to call it any different.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Look it is very simple, there are 2 posts that drop into the dog holes with the batten between. If I made them from wood, they would have to be fixed to the batten. So I have made my wooden device and saved 18 quid. (That is pounds sterling to our foreign friends) But then the longitudinal dog holes are a different spacing to the tangential. So I make another. Then I find the ones in my vice are a different pitch, to allow more scope clamping different work lengths, without having to gap the vice too much; I make a third. Then I find that no matter how accurately I spaced the holes, a bit of drill drift made the next set of holes 1/32 different to the first, centre to centre. I make a fourth and fifth for the longitudinal and tangential holes. I find the error repeats a couple of times in the 30 or so holes, in three rows, I drilled in the bench. I make a sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth. Now I can't remember which effing pair of holes each batten fits into and I wish I'd have just bought some with adjustable posts! Oh I already did and avoided that problem. Thank The Lord I'm blessed with some intelligence and foresight eh!
Mike.
Look it is very simple, there are 2 posts that drop into the dog holes with the batten between. If I made them from wood, they would have to be fixed to the batten. So I have made my wooden device and saved 18 quid. (That is pounds sterling to our foreign friends) But then the longitudinal dog holes are a different spacing to the tangential. So I make another. Then I find the ones in my vice are a different pitch, to allow more scope clamping different work lengths, without having to gap the vice too much; I make a third. Then I find that no matter how accurately I spaced the holes, a bit of drill drift made the next set of holes 1/32 different to the first, centre to centre. I make a fourth and fifth for the longitudinal and tangential holes. I find the error repeats a couple of times in the 30 or so holes, in three rows, I drilled in the bench. I make a sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth. Now I can't remember which effing pair of holes each batten fits into and I wish I'd have just bought some with adjustable posts! Oh I already did and avoided that problem. Thank The Lord I'm blessed with some intelligence and foresight eh!
Mike.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Well! That'll learn you to to drill your holes accurately in the first place!!
woodbrains":1tbwnbrc said:
OK, well do show us these wonderful items in action when you get them. In the meantime, you ought to practice your hole drilling.
The easiest way to tap a benchtop for dog holes is to make a template out of 2x4 material (drill holes in the 2x4 to guide your auger bit) and clamp it where you need it. Drill holes. No drift. It's like using a big dowel jig. Hope you find this helpful some day.
Once the benchtop is tapped you are essentially looking at a full size rod of the layout for the battens or any other jigs you plan to register in the dog holes - surely there will be at least a few of these, right? Maybe something that won't wait for Lee Valley?
Otherwise, you shouldn't have to measure a thing. That's the purpose of a rod, you offer the workpiece to it and mark it. You could even use the dog holes to hold the batten posts while they're glued or otherwise attached to the body of the batten. The fit, very obviously, will be perfect since the posts are sitting in the dog holes in which they will be placed during use. Just be judicious with the glue.
This seems pretty elementary. Fun, even. An afternoon's diversion between jobs. I don't see the problem. I sense you will, though.
May I ask how you've been dogging work before L-V?
Of course, there's always this (from my post above):
http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434
A sensible and sensibly British solution to the whole sordid mess.
Signed,
An old Tory holdout from the Colonies.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Charles, I don't need a lesson in drilling holes! If you think a softwood 4 by 2 would stay accurate enough to drill 30 plus holes with an auger, then I wonder how much experience you actually have at this wood working thing. I actually used a rather better piece of beech hardwood, drilled dead plumb with a rather good old drill press. However, augers have their lands relieved, to avoid too much friction in the holes, so in use, there is a little slop hence slight drilling error, which is multiplied over many holes. Then, iif you think anything can drill a whole matrix of holes across a 7 feet by 16 in area, other than CNC, so that 2 fixed posts will fit into any and every hole combination, then you are naive to say the least. You are not even considering seasonal movement, which will make all the hole spacing across the width change continuallly. The devices are well thought out, but in your hurry to condemn every new twist on an old idea, you seem to have given the details no thought. I'm not a beginner, Charles, and I know what I'm doing and that woodwork is not engineering. The tools we often use to help us do it well, however, often are engineered. And don't forget, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to have these things, I just thought It might be useful for some to hear about my bench adaption, which had to be done out of the necessity of having a smaller workshop and having to accommodate storage into a bench which previously had none. Hence altering the dog holes so that dogs did not stick out under the bench top.
Mike.
Charles, I don't need a lesson in drilling holes! If you think a softwood 4 by 2 would stay accurate enough to drill 30 plus holes with an auger, then I wonder how much experience you actually have at this wood working thing. I actually used a rather better piece of beech hardwood, drilled dead plumb with a rather good old drill press. However, augers have their lands relieved, to avoid too much friction in the holes, so in use, there is a little slop hence slight drilling error, which is multiplied over many holes. Then, iif you think anything can drill a whole matrix of holes across a 7 feet by 16 in area, other than CNC, so that 2 fixed posts will fit into any and every hole combination, then you are naive to say the least. You are not even considering seasonal movement, which will make all the hole spacing across the width change continuallly. The devices are well thought out, but in your hurry to condemn every new twist on an old idea, you seem to have given the details no thought. I'm not a beginner, Charles, and I know what I'm doing and that woodwork is not engineering. The tools we often use to help us do it well, however, often are engineered. And don't forget, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to have these things, I just thought It might be useful for some to hear about my bench adaption, which had to be done out of the necessity of having a smaller workshop and having to accommodate storage into a bench which previously had none. Hence altering the dog holes so that dogs did not stick out under the bench top.
Mike.
Corneel
Established Member
You don't need the battens, only the dogs. So that would have saved you to make all these extra pairs.
And I wouldn't turn my bench into a swiss cheese. All these holes won't improve your temper when you have some small screws or other little things lying around on the bench.
And I certainly wouldn't make stopped holes, or you must like to clean them out every evening.
And I wouldn't turn my bench into a swiss cheese. All these holes won't improve your temper when you have some small screws or other little things lying around on the bench.
And I certainly wouldn't make stopped holes, or you must like to clean them out every evening.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I've got just one stop on my bench. 8" x 1" square hardwood in a tight hole. Hammer it up from below. When untidy I just plane a bit off the end (whilst it's in the hole of course). It'll do for most bench top planing ops. If more support is needed I can rest a batten against it with the other end clamped on the far side of the bench. Can't say I feel the need for end ways clamping on the bench top very often but there are plenty of ways to improvise something. I've got a hold down clamp half way along.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
I built the bench with through holes originally, but like I said, I had to incorporate storage, so it is not an option, having push up dogs. I had to make the trade off, I need somewhere to put my tools. Small screws falling through dog holes disappear forever anyway. I might have a chance rescuing those, with a stopped hole. Like I said in a earlier post, no one has invented a perfect solution for anything, add a feature, and make something else less convenient, it is a compromise as anything in life. You pick your preferences. It is surprising how many holes drilled in the bench of this size still look insignificant, not Swiss cheese like at all. Risking even more abuse, I might post a photo tomorrow of the bench. I'll probably get a lecture from Jacob for one, on how unnecessary that sort of bench is.....but I don't care, it is only my second best one. My other one would give him a coronary!
Mike.
I built the bench with through holes originally, but like I said, I had to incorporate storage, so it is not an option, having push up dogs. I had to make the trade off, I need somewhere to put my tools. Small screws falling through dog holes disappear forever anyway. I might have a chance rescuing those, with a stopped hole. Like I said in a earlier post, no one has invented a perfect solution for anything, add a feature, and make something else less convenient, it is a compromise as anything in life. You pick your preferences. It is surprising how many holes drilled in the bench of this size still look insignificant, not Swiss cheese like at all. Risking even more abuse, I might post a photo tomorrow of the bench. I'll probably get a lecture from Jacob for one, on how unnecessary that sort of bench is.....but I don't care, it is only my second best one. My other one would give him a coronary!
Mike.
To provoke some further erudite discussion* get yourself a pair of pop-up Prairie dogs to complement your planing stop. :wink: Video of the prairie dogs in action.
I've previously made some 3/4" dowels with a tiny rare earth magnet set into the tops and bottoms (just so I didn't have to worry about which way up they were) protected under a blob of epoxy - hold a saw, chisel whatever over the dowel and out it pops. They work well for keeping detritus out of blind dog holes, so well that mine are on long term test with an appreciative 'friend'...
***** - Derek and Clive meet Statler and Waldorf - parental advisory 18+, filthy, abusive language throughout.
I've previously made some 3/4" dowels with a tiny rare earth magnet set into the tops and bottoms (just so I didn't have to worry about which way up they were) protected under a blob of epoxy - hold a saw, chisel whatever over the dowel and out it pops. They work well for keeping detritus out of blind dog holes, so well that mine are on long term test with an appreciative 'friend'...
***** - Derek and Clive meet Statler and Waldorf - parental advisory 18+, filthy, abusive language throughout.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Cant dogs are completely different things; for moving logs. I don't need those in my bench. :shock:
Mike.
Cant dogs are completely different things; for moving logs. I don't need those in my bench. :shock:
Mike.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Yes you are confused.bugbear":1u8bmnf2 said:
Rods could be, but are not usually full sized plans.
Sometimes can be literally a rod with marks e.g. stair "story rod".
More often a full sized section of say, the front of a chest of drawers horizontal and vertical and another one (or two) for the sides.
Or in the sawhorse thread the rod will be a complicated geometric drawing with little obvious resemblance to the finished item.
What they all have in common is allowing the taking off of marks onto the workpiece without the intervention of taking measurements, still less doing any calculating.
Just got a Hooper & Wells (someone recommended it probably Dave) and it's very good on the rod. Most of the old books are, many later writers seem to know nothing about them - including Wearing.
bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":pemh1sg3 said:
Yes, the concept is trivial, but the name is just wrong.
It was me, phil.p and DC, in the recent book thread. You should find much goodness within its covers.
BugBear
dc_ni
Established Member
This has all the hallmarks of turning into something like one of the sharpening posts ](*,)
Can't believe no one commented on the funny title of the post, having already watched the video i thought i'd have a look to see what peeps had been saying.
For our foreign members dogging is a, err, way that strangers get to meet and err be very friendly together :-"
Can't believe no one commented on the funny title of the post, having already watched the video i thought i'd have a look to see what peeps had been saying.
For our foreign members dogging is a, err, way that strangers get to meet and err be very friendly together :-"
woodbrains":2qos7ld9 said:
Mike, I see that you're quite convinced it's all an impossibility or at least far too difficult for the average bear, making a set of battens that can register in a bench's dog holes. Nothing could ever fit, slop is inevitable, there's no way to drill a set of consistently spaced holes or turn a few round posts that would ever fit them. I'm a little surprised but it doesn't seem like it's worth debating any further.
I'm not quite sure why you've set it up in your mind that you can't turn a stick round to fit in a hole of any size. If this is the case then Shaker and other stick chairs must be a figment of everybody's imagination.
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