Paul Sellers video

[MIGNAL]

Nothing is possible. We should all give up. Just sit down, take it easy. You know it makes sense. Leave everything to Veritas, Nasa and Ikea. :shock:

 

[Rhossydd]

Well, presumably neither you nor your grandfather use(d) the new L-V battens either.

Not Veritas, but he did use the nearest equivalent available at the time (it's at least 50 years old, possibly much more):

Adjustable and probably the most modern help to bench work of it's time. He may have been born in 1883, but he was no luddite that insisted on a 'hair shirt' attitude and would take any helpful technology on board that was affordable.

So, what should we make of this?

That your failure to appreciate how others can work makes your opinions less credible.

 

[Jacob]

I don't think anyone here is a "luddite.....insisting on a 'hair shirt' attitude".
It's just that there is a sizeable industry out there trying to sell us stuff we need, but also all sorts of stuff we don't really need, backed up by a media circus dependent on advertising. They've managed somehow to completely re-write the book on some topics (e.g. sharpening).
One ancient trick they use is to persuade you that things are really difficult (it is for a beginner) and that you need to buy lotsa stuff.
I expect it's always been like this and there has always been a bit of argy bargy about the latest loony novelties and innovations.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Its the same with fishing tackle. Unbelievable amounts of money can be spent achieving basically the same as me n Dad using split cane rods in 1970. Not all bad of course but unpicking the cloud of marketing to the genuinely useful innovations can be tricky at times.

 

[Spindle]

Hi

Describing someone who has adopted a means to an end that suits them as a Luddite because they don't wish to embrace the latest offering from the tool industry is a little strong. It's up to each and every one of us to decide how we pursue our hobby / trade and how we spend our money.
The opinions of others can be helpful when considering a purchase but the 'I'm right and your wrong' posts are pointless in my opinion.

Regards Mick

 

[Rhossydd]

Describing someone who has adopted a means to an end that suits them as a Luddite because they don't wish to embrace the latest offering from the tool industry is a little strong.

You've missed the point. I've no problem with the Luddite faction here sticking with whatever working methods they choose, what I object to is their continual anti-innovation stance.

It's up to each and every one of us to decide how we pursue our hobby / trade and how we spend our money.
The opinions of others can be helpful when considering a purchase but the 'I'm right and your wrong' posts are pointless in my opinion.

Quite right.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I think Charles is purposely missing the point. I can turn a dowel to fit a hole sure, never been an issue. It is fixing two dowels to a batten and expecting that spacing to universally fit any and every pair of 30 or more holes, drilled by a human being with a hand held drill, that I am doubting is likely. Not impossible, but not likely and not worth the time taking pains to try.

Jacob, I do need these devices. It has nothing to do with sales pitch, or wasting money, or making up for lack of skill. These genuinely help dogging on my bench, that cannot be conveniently be clamped, won't be nailed and cannot be hammered up from below. The storage units I've put under the bench gets in the blooming way, as I keep saying. No one has come up with an alternative shop made solution to what I need, despite continually telling me I don't need these things. And as I was trying to explain, though I have a tail vice, the bench was already equipped with one, these would negate having one in the first place. Surely a saving of time, fuss and money, to someone making a bench for the first time.


Mike.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think the important thing to realise is that an opinion is precisely that and nothing more. It may suit one woordworker and not another. I suspect the skill is in not rising to the bait!

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

I think Charles is purposely missing the point. I can turn a dowel to fit a hole sure, never been an issue. It is fixing two dowels to a batten and expecting that spacing to universally fit any and every pair of 30 or more holes, drilled by a human being with a hand held drill, that I am doubting is likely. Not impossible, but not likely and not worth the time taking pains to try.

Jacob, I do need these devices. It has nothing to do with sales pitch, or wasting money, or making up for lack of skill. These genuinely help dogging on my bench, that cannot be conveniently be clamped, won't be nailed and cannot be hammered up from below. The storage units I've put under the bench gets in the blooming way, as I keep saying. No one has come up with an alternative shop made solution to what I need, despite continually telling me I don't need these things. And as I was trying to explain, though I have a tail vice, the bench was already equipped with one, these would negate having one in the first place. Surely a saving of time, fuss and money, to someone making a bench for the first time.


Mike.

Mike, you keep seeing this as a problem in which error has the potential to grow over the whole layout. It's not one of those circumstances. If you'll quit defending your purchase and think about it I believe you'll see that it's not a problem. It really is not a problem.

In the most absurd example you could simply build the batten complete with posts and mark the posts all over the bench in any configuration, angle, etc. you cared to and each marking is wholly and entirely independent of the one that came before it. This is a crucial concept. This in fact might give you the most flexibility. Drill holes. Batten(s) fit everywhere. You're the one hung up on all the measuring. It's not necessary. I promise. Mark them and drill them one at a time, drop batten in, and see for yourself. Move to the next location. Don't measure, hell don't even eyeball it. Plop the batten down and mark. Drill. Rinse and repeat somewhere else on the benchtop where you think you might need the batten. You could have a total crazy quilt of holes (and tons of flexibility) and the batten would fit everywhere because you marked and drilled them one at a time and you used an already made batten to make each independent set of marks.

You're seeing this as a circumstance where the current set of marks to drill rely on the Xth set of marks that came before it. It doesn't have to be that way if you don't want it to be. You have the option not to make this one of those circumstances. While I'm absolutely positive that a large set of holes can be drilled consistently spaced apart (to each other) it is entirely unnecessary to do so if it makes you or anybody else, anxious.

 

[iNewbie]

The question is: how many times do these same two people need to get their biased opinion(s) on the same subject(s), across...

Its not one or two people bored with it. If as a moderator you see it as bait then perhaps action needs be taken...

 

[MIGNAL]

Don't be silly inewbie.
It's just a difference of opinion or a different approach. People are free to air their respective views. Stop turning this into something it isn't. I don't see any personal insults being thrown about.
Get a grip!!! :lol:

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

TBH I haven't even tested that my dog holes are not equally spaced. I'm not going to either to prove I could do it or not. The devices are hardly expensive, compared to a few pints in the pub, or a meal out. They do what I want without fuss. They will earn their keep, will not need replacing when worn out, ( they won't) and add to the overall quality of my bench and working experience. I don't see the point in penny pinching, I'm not rich, but we do not have to impose some sort of woodworking austerity. Like you, I got on for years with shop made bench dogs, but circumstances dictated that they would no linger work for me, they do for you, so don't change. It is not as if I feel the need to buy a Holtey plane and argue I cannot work without one. Actually I would not thank you for one, but I won't discourage anyone who wanted one, and would like to hear of their experiences. Actually, can anyone fill me in on owning a Holtey?

Mike.

 

[iNewbie]

Don't be silly inewbie.
It's just a difference of opinion or a different approach. People are free to air their respective views. Stop turning this into something it isn't. I don't see any personal insults being thrown about.
Get a grip!!! :lol:

I didn't mention insults. You did.

Its the same old: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGb9XB_LsKY

By: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MF6bLIWJiY


Now do you get it? :lol:

 

[Racers]

As your ignore list gets bigger your happiness grows.

Pete

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Don't worry chaps, I'm not being unduly upset by the pestering. In fact Charles' continued attempts at trying to come up with methods to drill holes is amusing, more than anything. His last attempt would not guarantee success either, despite what he thinks. ( there is always an aspect that he misses. But having done it myself just a couple of days ago, the pitfalls are fresh in my mind. His suggestions are welcome though. My mantra is that you can only learn through error, so his erring is educating me no end. I'll let him figure out why his last effort would likely fail to be accurate, I'm just looking forward to using my nice bench tomorrow.

Mike.

 

[Peter Sefton]

The Veritas planing stops are excellent to use and very solid with only 5mm projection above the bench top. But if you don't mind nailing or screwing lathes to your bench top you can do with out them, but I won't be going back.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Peter

 

[woodbrains]

The Veritas planing stops are excellent to use and very solid with only 5mm projection above the bench top. But if you don't mind nailing or screwing lathes to your bench top you can do with out them, but I won't be going back.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =1&theater

Peter

Hello,

What's not to like? =D> :lol:

Mike.

 

[KevM]

I was dubious until I tried one of the Veritas planing stops, after a year or so of using one I wouldn't change back.

 

[Rhossydd]

The devices are hardly expensive, compared to a few pints in the pub, or a meal out. They do what I want without fuss. They will earn their keep, will not need replacing when worn out, ( they won't) and add to the overall quality of my bench and working experience. I don't see the point in penny pinching, I'm not rich, but we do not have to impose some sort of woodworking austerity.

That sums it up nicely.

 

[Jacob]

I think the whole point of the original post is being missed; that there are craft processes and things you can do for yourself which might radically improve your working life or your product, without costing much, if anything. These are empowering, capacity building, skill developing, whatever you want to call it.
It seems a pity to give up and find ourselves having to contemplate yet another expensive gadget from gadget central. Bloody boring in fact!