Paul Sellers video

[Corneel]

I'll have to make something like Sellers solution too. I have an old Record vise without a dog and want to put that on the end of my bench too. Now I just need to fabricate something. My situation is a little different, so the solution will be a bit different too. But it's nice to watch someone else creating a similar setup.

I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.

 

[Jacob]

...
I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.

Several different length dogs? Keep them in a kennel under the bench. You could also have them with teeth, to grip the workpiece .

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

Clamping takes time and is cumbersome to the point where they are often in the way of the work. A pair of cramps cost more than these stops and are often in use for clamping up projects, unless we buy a dedicated set for bench holding. Are you seeing the flaw in your argument? Dog holes may remove material from the bench, but not destructively so, like continually inserting and pulling nails into a benchtop which will need replacing after some years. The multiple posts on these planing stops spread the pressure and reduce, or prevent elongation. They are well designed and simple and effective. I'm not sure how another contributer here can describe them as a 'fancy dog system'. System? Really?

Mike.

No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps easily outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.

I get the impression I'm debating the same group of people who, on the one hand, need the 'efficiency' provided by PM-V11 steel's edge holding ability, but at the same time don't own enough clamps to glue up more than a panel or two at a time.

Dig around for images of Art Carpenter's workshop, workbenches, and work too, if you're unfamiliar with it. In doing so, you will familiarize yourself with the ethic in which I approach all of this which is to get your mileage out of your tools.

I would be mortified (pardon the pun) if after I kick the bucket somebody walks into my shop and the first impression they get is that it all looks unused. I'm all for leaving blood splatters, brad holes, and sweat stains. Doing otherwise takes too much time. :wink:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.

Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.

 

[G S Haydon]

Hello,

Clamping takes time and is cumbersome to the point where they are often in the way of the work. A pair of cramps cost more than these stops and are often in use for clamping up projects, unless we buy a dedicated set for bench holding. Are you seeing the flaw in your argument? Dog holes may remove material from the bench, but not destructively so, like continually inserting and pulling nails into a benchtop which will need replacing after some years. The multiple posts on these planing stops spread the pressure and reduce, or prevent elongation. They are well designed and simple and effective. I'm not sure how another contributer here can describe them as a 'fancy dog system'. System? Really?

Mike.

No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps easily outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.

Dig around for images of Art Carpenter's workshop, workbenches, and work too, if you're unfamiliar with it. In doing so, you will familiarize yourself with the ethic in which I approach all of this which is to get your mileage out of your tools.

I would be mortified (pardon the pun) if after I kick the bucket somebody walks into my shop and the first impression they get is that it all looks unused. I'm all for leaving blood splatters, brad holes, and sweat stains. Doing otherwise takes too much time. :wink:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/arts/ ... .html?_r=0

 

[MIGNAL]

Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.

Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.

Quite right! What took you so long?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.

Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.

Quite right! What took you so long?

Give it about a century, and I'll work almost anything out!

A couple more centuries, and even Jacob and Charles might get it, too!

 

[dc_ni]

Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.

Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.

Shouldn't that be a piece of flint wedged in it?

 

[Rhossydd]

I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens

I've never found the need for sets of battens that need clamping or nailing to my bench in the last 45 years of woodwork, neither did my grandfather before me.
Your failure to understand how others work differently is the problem.

 

[bugbear]

I'll have to make something like Sellers solution too. I have an old Record vise without a dog and want to put that on the end of my bench too. Now I just need to fabricate something. My situation is a little different, so the solution will be a bit different too. But it's nice to watch someone else creating a similar setup.

I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.

I would suggest making the moving jaw very thick, far thicker than Sellers; in this way you can at least provide some support for the workpiece at the vise end, before it has to leap the chasm...

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Some things are useful innovations.
But many innovations are useless gadgets - people often don't spot this until after they've bought them.
Just put "new, improved" and amateur woodworkers get really excited!
Do you really think those very expensive Veritas gadgets are an improvement on anything? 2 screws in the worktop would do a better job for next to nothing.
Roll on the Mark II version - I can't wait to spend my money!!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Can't understand why anybody bothers with all these new-fangled gadgets.

Like those complicated and expensive Bailey-type planes for example. All you need is a chunk of wood with a cutting iron wedged in it.

Shouldn't that be a piece of flint wedged in it?

Good point. Why bother with all this new-fangled metal?

Come to think of it, why bother with the wedge, either? Just tie the flint to a stout stick! Job done!

 

[Jacob]

I'll have to make something like Sellers solution too. I have an old Record vise without a dog and want to put that on the end of my bench too. Now I just need to fabricate something. My situation is a little different, so the solution will be a bit different too. But it's nice to watch someone else creating a similar setup.

I'd like to make the dog adjustable in height though.

I would suggest making the moving jaw very thick, far thicker than Sellers; in this way you can at least provide some support for the workpiece at the vise end, before it has to leap the chasm...

BugBear

What is this mysterious chasm problem? Surely with a highly adjustable dog system you'd close the vice jaws as far as possible and move the dogs instead. That's how you'd do it if you were just banging in a couple of screws or similar.
Problems problems, dear oh dear :roll:
NB. Most planing on the bench top would be done without cramping anything - just sitting it loose and working towards a single dog or stop at the far end

 

[Eric The Viking]

Some things are useful innovations.
But many innovations are useless gadgets - people often don't spot this until after they've bought them.
Just put "new, improved" and amateur woodworkers get really excited!
Do you really think those very expensive Veritas gadgets are an improvement on anything? 2 screws in the worktop would do a better job for next to nothing.
Roll on the Mark II version - I can't wait to spend my money!!

We share a 'different' mindset, Jacob, I think.

I'm quite fond of hardboard offcuts for the purpose, and they'd damage the plane's edge less if something slips.

I saw those Veritas things in the flesh today, and couldn't believe they'd made it as far as actual production. You'd've thought someone, at some point, in their marketing team would have yelled "Woah!", but no. There they were. No shame, evidently.

It's like doing mother of pearl inlay in a screwdriver handle. Of course you can, but why???

E.

 

[Jacob]

The beauty of a dog made from wood is that if you skid cross it you won't need to sharpen you plane or scraper blade (with or without a gig) if you bang up against a metal dog you'll spend ages getting rid of that nick in your blade before you can get back to making stuff. Speaking of which....

Hello,

Wasn't sellers vice dog metal? These Veritas ones are aluminium and very low profile, hitting them with a tool is unlikely and would not damage it.

I used shop made wooden dogs for years, with ash springs to keep them at the height set, but they needed through holes to allow them to be pushed through. I have to have stopped holes now, so ones that can be accessed from the top only have to be used. Sellers ones stick up 3/4 inch, too high for many applications. I doubt a dog of that design could be made 5.5mm high and be removable without breaking a fingernail. The single hole dogs I intend to make will be even simpler than his. A round rod with a square of birch ply on top, slightly undercut to assist holding stock down and getting a purchase for lifting them out.

Mike.

One simple compromise would be have blank dogs in the holes and just put a screw in the top as and when. Best of both worlds!
NB stopped holes would be a PITA and always filling with sawdust.

 

[woodbrains]

No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps easily outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.

Dig around for images of Art Carpenter's workshop, workbenches, and work too, if you're unfamiliar with it. In doing so, you will familiarize yourself with the ethic in which I approach all of this which is to get your mileage out of your tools.

I would be mortified (pardon the pun) if after I kick the bucket somebody walks into my shop and the first impression they get is that it all looks unused. I'm all for leaving blood splatters, brad holes, and sweat stains. Doing otherwise takes too much time. :wink:

Hello,

I still don't see how clamping battens to benches is more convenient than dropping a couple of pegs with the batten attached into some holes. I don't see how clamps, that have to protrude above the surface of the batten, is more convenient than having no protrusion at all and I don't see how clamps cannot be better employed clamping the project together, rather than being tied up unnecessarily as a bench device, that is rendered obsolete by these. And clamps are not cheap so the cost of planing stops cannot be used as an argument for not having them. I am NOT going to nail things to my bench. I made it and don't want to wreck the thing, when a simple device exists to keep it unmarked and flat, so I can do good work on it. Lastly, if anyone can give me a shop made alternative to these devices, that do everything these devices do, and as well, then I will make some and return the items to where I bought them. I'm not too stupid and couldn't think of a reasonable way of doing so, hence the purchase. I could not be happier with my bench and I'd bet a pound to a pinch anyone here would be happy to work on it, too.

Mike.

 

[DTR]

I would suggest making the moving jaw very thick, far thicker than Sellers; in this way you can at least provide some support for the workpiece at the vise end, before it has to leap the chasm...

BugBear

And with a very thick jaw, you have the advantage of boring a hole in it and using a height adjustable round dog similar to the others, instead of that strip of brass.

 

[Trafalgar]

No, Mike I'm not seeing the flaw in my argument. My investment in clamps easily outstrips the money I've spent on my basic kit of tools -- planes, saws, etc. (doesn't everybody's? how could it not?) And I bought four more clamps last week. I have a couple to spare for clamping battens to a workbench to dog a workpiece. I almost always have a batten going across anyway. Mostly clamped, sometimes tacked. If I need to change one out the clamps just hang on the bench until I insert the thicker or thinner one as it were. I definitely plead guilty as charged, though, that my operation, output, and productivity are not so highly tuned as to be hampered in any way by clamping battens.

Dig around for images of Art Carpenter's workshop, workbenches, and work too, if you're unfamiliar with it. In doing so, you will familiarize yourself with the ethic in which I approach all of this which is to get your mileage out of your tools.

I would be mortified (pardon the pun) if after I kick the bucket somebody walks into my shop and the first impression they get is that it all looks unused. I'm all for leaving blood splatters, brad holes, and sweat stains. Doing otherwise takes too much time. :wink:

Hello,

I still don't see how clamping battens to benches is more convenient than dropping a couple of pegs with the batten attached into some holes. I don't see how clamps, that have to protrude above the surface of the batten, is more convenient than having no protrusion at all and I don't see how clamps cannot be better employed clamping the project together, rather than being tied up unnecessarily as a bench device, that is rendered obsolete by these. And clamps are not cheap so the cost of planing stops cannot be used as an argument for not having them. I am NOT going to nail things to my bench. I made it and don't want to wreck the thing, when a simple device exists to keep it unmarked and flat, so I can do good work on it. Lastly, if anyone can give me a shop made alternative to these devices, that do everything these devices do, and as well, then I will make some and return the items to where I bought them. I'm not too stupid and couldn't think of a reasonable way of doing so, hence the purchase. I could not be happier with my bench and I'd bet a pound to a pinch anyone here would be happy to work on it, too.

Mike.

As I mentioned in my first post, the LV arrangement is replicated in wood in one of Robt. Wearing's books. Just build them in wood. Perhaps I'm missing the 'magic' in the L-V product, though that would mean an eon's worth of hand tool craftsmen did as well.

I see that you're not going to nail something into your bench. That's fine, clamp them or makes the battens in wood and insert the unit into a set of dog holes. I still don't see why somebody needs to buy these in aluminum. I must be missing some 'must have' feature of these things.

 

[Trafalgar]

I'd like to understand how anybody could have gotten along without ALREADY having a set of battens

I've never found the need for sets of battens that need clamping or nailing to my bench in the last 45 years of woodwork, neither did my grandfather before me.
Your failure to understand how others work differently is the problem.

Well, presumably neither you nor your grandfather use(d) the new L-V battens either. So, what should we make of this?

I just visited the website and the L-V aluminum things are nothing but glorified battens so I assume you'd have no need of them. There are other ways of dogging workpieces though battens have been a favorite for several centuries.

I appreciate the fact that L-V acknowledges the usefulness of these, I just can't imagine why somebody who likes the concept wouldn't make their own or isn't already using a very close proxy. It's a little shocking to see people react as if they've never heard of using battens or haven't seen a similar arrangement in wood. I don't have my Wearing book handy but these look like a copy other than for the 'T' track bit.

Battens work well with holdfasts, too (from Great Britain, no less):

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434

But, if your bench is a little less 'finished' then just tack them down and don't sweat it.

 

[bugbear]

What is this mysterious chasm problem? Surely with a highly adjustable dog system you'd close the vice jaws as far as possible and move the dogs instead.

Yes, you (obbviously) use the various dog holes to suit the work, and get range beyond the pure travel of the vise.

The minimum vise opening is the distance between the dogs; if you have dogs every 6", your vise will need
to be open by up to 6", and some workpieces will flex too much for planing in a gap this big.

BugBear