Oh Dear - he's gone and trumped them all!

[RobinBHM]

Id like to think there is bit of difference between a closet nazi and a brexiter, if not we all doomed.

It was a despicable act of terrorism.

Yes, I worry about redneck Trump supporters, stereotyped maybe but also true

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

It also has a lot to do with the development of the technology.

LED bulbs, bulbs and dimmer technology has moved on a lot in the last year or so.

I used to offer LED downlighters as an upgrade for an orangery as they were quite a lot more than halogen, but now just do them as standard.

For an average orangery there is a worthwhile difference between say 12 x 50 watt GU10 bulbs compared to 12 x 9 watt LEDs, almost 500 watts less. I dontknow about reliability but halogen bulbs dont exactly last long.

I recently replaced 10 candle shaped bulbs from halogen incandescent to dimmable LED. The LED are excellent, they are dimmable all the way down to almost nothing, no flickering and even have a mock filament in them. The latest dimmer switches come with trailing and leading edge circuitry options for differing bulb options.

Of course it wont save money, it will help to hold off the constant energy hikes though! No doubt Im paying for all you people with over generous feed in tariffs guaranteed until 2099

At another time and in another thread I'd really like to pick up on the issue of changing from old style downlights to LED because I'd like to do it in my Kitchen which is only 9 years old! All my lights were made by a company called snaplight which have since gone bust so the mechanisms are irreplaceable. Each light has a separate tranny behind the bezel and I'm forever changing the dam things when they get too hot and cook! If it's not the bulb, it's the tranny...like painting the Forth road bridge! I hear that LED's are much cooler and therefore don't cook trannys. However mine are also dimmable and I also understand you need to match the switch to the light technology. So at some point I want to replace my Kitchen lights with a new everything basically...from the switch to the individual downlights...to LED. But I have no idea which direction to take, which products are good/bad etc as I'm 9 years out of date.

 

[RogerS]

....
It is interesting to compare and contrast how some parties try to pin blame for Cox's murder at the door of DM readers / Brexit supporters yet when members of the religion of peace torture and massacre 130 innocent concert goers the same voices say "nothing to do with Islam".

Well said.... =D>

 

[RogerS]

There is a huge degree of hostility and veiled/overt threats emanating from parts of the Brexit camp. You gave us one yourself:

... that are creating discord by wilfully seeking to undermine the democratic decisions both here and in the USA. It is a dangerous game to play and sets a precedent that the socialists may come to regret.

Not "pinning the blame" on the whole camp, but it's glaringly obvious that Mair would be influenced by this sort of stuff. It wasn't just a coincidence.
...

On the other hand, Jacob, you could be confusing correlation with causation again.

 

[Inoffthered]

There is a huge degree of hostility and veiled/overt threats emanating from parts of the Brexit camp. You gave us one yourself:

... that are creating discord by wilfully seeking to undermine the democratic decisions both here and in the USA. It is a dangerous game to play and sets a precedent that the socialists may come to regret.

Not "pinning the blame" on the whole camp, but it's glaringly obvious that Mair would be influenced by this sort of stuff. It wasn't just a coincidence.
...

On the other hand, Jacob, you could be confusing correlation with causation again.

Roger, I'm glad I'm not the only one that sees it.
I think I'll withdraw from this debate. It is a bit tedious when one side constantly conflates arguments, doesn't answer specific queries and selectively interprets comments and takes them out of context to support his own bigotry.
To imply that one of my comments represented a threat (which he has done twice) illustrates either a troll or a scary lack of comprehension Mindful of the sub O level economic pronouncements and wikipedia cut and pastes from his contributions during the Brexit debate I should have known better than to expect an adult debate.

 

[Jacob]

...
To imply that one of my comments represented a threat (which he has done twice) ...

If they aren't a threat then what does it mean when you say

....dangerous game to play and sets a precedent that the socialists may come to regret.

How will they come to regret playing this dangerous game? By being shot and stabbed like Joe Cox?

Inoffthered you need to be clear about whose side you are on.

 

[RossJarvis]

Probably best not to weigh in, but...oh well.

From the information I have seen it would seem that the main issue with the dreadful murder of Jo Cox was one of Mental Health. Maybe it's to do with Mair's non-engagement with the process, but it seems strange that some sort of mitigation on Mental Health grounds was not brought into what seemed to be a purely criminal prosecution. Maybe further reports are to be sought. It may be prudent for any campaigning group, not intent on assassinations, to moderate their language bearing in mind what the unstable/lacking in control may do, but I think the responsibility for Mair's actions lies with him and him alone. However whether he was "responsible" within his own actions is another issue. It would be naive to think that the nazi hate literature that he read and contributed to and the British/White supremacist milieu were not influential, nor that the Remain/Leave campaigns didn't have something to do with his state of mind at the time. But it would be wrong to shift the blame from him and his own actions elsewhere.

I don't think that any side has a monopoly on homocidal supporters, although it does seem that things can swing in popularity. In the 70s the left had its murderous followers E.g. the Red Brigades, and the Terror of the French revolution and similar with the Russian revolution, Shining path etc, shows that murderous intent is not solely the property of the right.

Judging where the boundary between madness and sanity comes in terms of carrying out horrific acts or being beyond rational control is not a precise art and is often overlooked or denied for many reasons. I dare say there are many "vulnerable" people being deliberately manipulated by the Islamic Death Cults to commit dreadful atrocities. As well as many rational and well educated ones to similar ends. There are also many deranged people doing horrible things with no connection to a "greater" cause, as there are sane and reasonable people doing similar. See the story about the serial killer in the same press at the same time, or the rare cases of stranger murder by people with severe Mental Health episodes.

I'd have to say that it is unfortunate at the best and disgraceful at the worst that the death of a hard working caring MP, mother and wife is used for other peoples stupid battles of politics or to sell newspapers.

 

[Jacob]

....

I'd have to say that it is unfortunate at the best and disgraceful at the worst that the death of a hard working caring MP, mother and wife is used for other peoples stupid battles of politics or to sell newspapers.

But not to forget that Mair politicised this himself, and to bear in mind;

... that are creating discord by wilfully seeking to undermine the democratic decisions both here and in the USA. It is a dangerous game to play and sets a precedent that the socialists may come to regret.

 

[RossJarvis]

Why on earth are they undermining the democratic decision of the USA inoffthered? Clinton won the popular vote, not Trump. Trump is now already rolling back on his key promises. The only person undermining the will of the people is the person that they put in office: Trump. He got elected on a completely false mandate. He's conned the electorate.

In a discussion this evening with some friends about this point, I was minded to mention that virtually every politician or party who has ever got in seems to revise or completely ignore the promises given before they got in. Maybe Trump is just more blatant in his dishonesty than the other b*****s.

 

[MIGNAL]

Oh yes I'm well aware of that. I think Trump seems to be taking it to a new level. He hasn't crossed the threshold of the Whitehouse and he's already muttering about changing his stance on things that he said. The difference might be the number of things that he's rolling back on. Some are probably out of his control, such as the 45% tariffs. But then you could safely argue that he should never have promised that in the first place.
Talking of undermining democracy though, he wasn't going to accept the result unless he won, because it was 'rigged'. Dear me, if that doesn't undermine democracy I don't know what does. He was clearly wrong about it being rigged though!
I'm still waiting for inoffthereds explanation as to what is undermining democracy in the US.

 

[RossJarvis]

....

I'd have to say that it is unfortunate at the best and disgraceful at the worst that the death of a hard working caring MP, mother and wife is used for other peoples stupid battles of politics or to sell newspapers.

But not to forget that Mair politicised this himself, and to bear in mind;

... that are creating discord by wilfully seeking to undermine the democratic decisions both here and in the USA. It is a dangerous game to play and sets a precedent that the socialists may come to regret.

Jacob, I'm not sure I understand the point you're making about the first bit, for instance David Icke makes a lot of comments about a lot of things, it doesn't make me hate lizards, love lizards or think he has anything of any relevance to say on the subject of herpetology at all. I wouldn't say that Mair's actions were not in some way connected with politics or the World going on around him but the real issue is much much more to do with Mental Health than it is to do with Politics. What we see happening in the press about this issue is also much more to do with politics than the reality of the tragic events of that day. The only political point to score might be one that if Mental Health Care provision had more support, this may not have happened at all.

Regarding the second quote I think you may be interpreting the "may come to regret" bit as sounding like a threat. I'm not sure if I've read the original correctly but I assumed that Inofftheread was saying that the socialists (whoever they are?) are creating discord and may later regret that if the boot were to be on the other foot in the future, that the right may also create similar discord.

Good grief, it's late, sleep tight and well.

 

[RossJarvis]

Oh yes I'm well aware of that. I think Trump seems to be taking it to a new level. He hasn't crossed the threshold of the Whitehouse and he's already muttering about changing his stance on things that he said. The difference might be the number of things that he's rolling back on. Some are probably out of his control, such as the 45% tariffs. But then you could safely argue that he should never have promised that in the first place.
Talking of undermining democracy though, he wasn't going to accept the result unless he won, because it was 'rigged'. Dear me, if that doesn't undermine democracy I don't know what does. He was clearly wrong about it being rigged though!
I'm still waiting for inoffthereds explanation as to what is undermining democracy in the US.

Personally I think he should stick to his guns about the election being rigged and not accept the result. It may make us all sleep easier if he did that.

 

[Jacob]

..
Regarding the second quote I think you may be interpreting the "may come to regret" bit as sounding like a threat. I'm not sure if I've read the original correctly but I assumed that Inofftheread was saying that the socialists (whoever they are?) are creating discord and may later regret that if the boot were to be on the other foot in the future, that the right may also create similar discord.....

Exactly. That is a threat is it not?
Arguing for a political point of view is not "creating discord" if it is peaceful and non threatening, it is democracy in action.

Jeering "get over it remoaners" etc is the thin end of the wedge - we don't have to "get over it" - this is a democracy.

I don't suppose Inofftheread intends anybody any harm (could be wrong, should I lock my doors more thoroughly at night?) but there is a lot of this angry, verging on violent, rhetoric coming from the right and it clearly triggered Mair into action, and a whole series of attacks on immigrants, muslims etc. in recent months.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I'm afraid on this I disagree Jacob. I think Ross hits the proverbial nail on the head when he suggests it's mental health that was the true cause behind the action on that day. The very idea that a sane person would commit murder after reading or hearing mainstream media is nonsense. But an unhinged person, of course. Precisely which message they choose to hang their deranged hat on is anybody's guess, I mean take your pick: Looney left, looney right, white supremacism, radical Islam, maybe a bit of IRA for good measure? The truth is there's a veritable smorgasbord of up to the minute "causes" that a nutjob can latch on to which are being reported in various levels of decency on hundreds of sources of media.

The classic trap is to retro-fit the facts to bolster a viewpoint and present it like it's causation.

In that, mental health was very clearly the cause. Everything else is just a political agenda.

 

[Jacob]

But there is no clear line between mental health/ill-health, it's a continuum.
It was not a coincidence that Mair was some sort of fascist with his head (and bookshelves) full of stuff, also a brexiter, attacked an anti brexit MP and shouted "Britain First".
If mental health was the whole issue he would have attacked randomly without any of these associations
Yes "mental health was very clearly the cause" but the current political atmosphere was also a cause; the trigger for Mair, and for other recent attacks on immigrants and muslims.

Those who use the rhetoric of intolerance and violence are actively encouraging it - and many of them know this perfectly well, not least Farage and Trump.

 

[RossJarvis]

..
Regarding the second quote I think you may be interpreting the "may come to regret" bit as sounding like a threat. I'm not sure if I've read the original correctly but I assumed that Inofftheread was saying that the socialists (whoever they are?) are creating discord and may later regret that if the boot were to be on the other foot in the future, that the right may also create similar discord.....

Exactly. That is a threat is it not?

I think I can see how the wording of the comment may be read as a threat, and I can see how similar wording may be used as an actual threat. Now I may not have read the original as "written", but in my mind I can't see that the writer intended this particular point as a threat.

Last night I went to the curry house and consumed a fair amount of Cobra and curry. I'm sure someone might say that "you'll regret that". I wouldn't take that as a threat and in this instance they'd be wrong. Though I did regret the quantity of curry consumed as it limited the quantity of Cobra administered. However as the Curry was "all you can eat for £12" and the Cobra priced per volume I had little choice. I did regret that the deal wasn't the other way round though.

 

[Jacob]

How it works is those who want to keep their hands clean just use the words and encourage the others ("agents provocateurs"). Some of them talk the talk but don't realise it could have consequences.
"Taking back control" is popular.
Down the line the relatively balanced commit the lesser actions (minor attacks on immigrants etc).
Further down the same line you get Mair who will swallow the whole message and go all the way.

 

[RogerS]

But there is no clear line between mental health/ill-health, it's a continuum.
It was not a coincidence that Mair was some sort of fascist with his head (and bookshelves) full of stuff, also a brexiter, attacked an anti brexit MP and shouted "Britain First".
If mental health was the whole issue he would have attacked randomly without any of these associations
Yes "mental health was very clearly the cause" but the current political atmosphere was also a cause; the trigger for Mair, and for other recent attacks on immigrants and muslims.

Those who use the rhetoric of intolerance and violence are actively encouraging it - and many of them know this perfectly well, not least Farage and Trump.

That is rubbish, Jacob. I wasn't aware that you were an expert on mental health issues and so in a position to make these sweeping generalisations. You are, yet again, confusing causation with correlation to suit your own bigoted views.

 

[RossJarvis]

How it works is those who want to keep their hands clean just use the words and encourage the others ("agents provocateurs"). Some of them talk the talk but don't realise it could have consequences.
"Taking back control" is popular.
Down the line the relatively balanced commit the lesser actions (minor attacks on immigrants etc).
Further down the same line you get Mair who will swallow the whole message and go all the way.

I can't quite remember quite how we got to this point but I don't think I'd disagree with you here and it's a technique that has been deliberately used in the past.

Like all the other things we've been sleepwalking into, maybe we will be hit by more and more civil disruption over these issues. The actions of someone like Mair are pretty rare and shouldn't really be given too much if any weight, it's the disgruntled and often youthfully boisterous "mob" that pose the real threat.

I'm not sure that the rhetoric of the likes of Farage, Trump etc, and there are probably similar on the left is the danger either, although they will be trying to play the media game. It's the media itself which is the problem, manipulating the "rhetoric" and broadcasting it. I've just caught sight of the cover of the Scum, sorry, Daily Mail and yet again it's throwing sense and truth out of the window to knock the Institute of Fiscal Studies for pointing out that most of us are pretty badly off and will be for a good while to come.

I remember the uproar at the unions in the 70s and 80s, we read about it through the press so it must have been right and look what happened to workers rights since then. The fact that the print unions alone were taking the Mickey had nothing to do with it?

To get back to the point about Mair, Gavrilo Princip shooting Franz Ferdinand really didn't cause the First World War, though I'm sure the press would like you to think so.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

By pure coincidence, this article in the Telegraph deals with some of what we've been discussing. It notes the rise of 'post-truth politics', a phrase used in the left-leaning media quite a bit lately, but points out that some left-leaning journalists fall into the trap of using it. The article then goes on to say that whilst some would like to divide humanity in neat 'left' and 'right' political boxes, and ascribe certain beliefs to each box, people are much more diverse and complicated. If we're to understand our current situation and find ways forward, our analyses must be more nuanced.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... -politics/