Oh Dear - he's gone and trumped them all!

[RossJarvis]

By pure coincidence, this article in the Telegraph deals with some of what we've been discussing. It notes the rise of 'post-truth politics', a phrase used in the left-leaning media quite a bit lately, but points out that some left-leaning journalists fall into the trap of using it. The article then goes on to say that whilst some would like to divide humanity in neat 'left' and 'right' political boxes, and ascribe certain beliefs to each box, people are much more diverse and complicated. If we're to understand our current situation and find ways forward, our analyses must be more nuanced.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... -politics/

An excellent article.

The problem with the monicker "post truth", is the irrational or rose tinted view that politicians have ever had more than a passing acquaintance with the "truth" in the recent or far past.

 

[Jacob]

By pure coincidence, this article in the Telegraph deals with some of what we've been discussing. It notes the rise of 'post-truth politics', a phrase used in the left-leaning media quite a bit lately, but points out that some left-leaning journalists fall into the trap of using it. The article then goes on to say that whilst some would like to divide humanity in neat 'left' and 'right' political boxes, and ascribe certain beliefs to each box, people are much more diverse and complicated. If we're to understand our current situation and find ways forward, our analyses must be more nuanced.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11 ... -politics/

it's in the telegraph so can be safely ignored.
It isn't particularly a left leaning media term - this is just telegraph sounding off - and in the process presumably justifying the untruths which drove/drive brexit and trump campaigns.
Americans are worst at it - they think you can think what you like and choose not to believe in climate change etc etc

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - do you genuinely think like that, or are you just trying to wind people up?

If it's the former, you really do need to broaden your outlook.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

it's in the telegraph so can be safely ignored.
It isn't particularly a left leaning media term - this is just telegraph sounding off - and in the process presumably justifying the untruths which drove/drive brexit and trump campaigns.
Americans are worst at it - they think you can think what you like and choose not to believe in climate change etc etc

As an experiment - let's try something.

"It's in the Guardian so can be safely ignored.
It isn't particularly a right-leaning term - this is just the Guardian sounding off - and in the process presumably justifying the untruths which drove the Remain vote and Clinton campaigns.
Americans are worst at it - they think you can think what you like and choose not to believe in the free market etc etc."

Neither your statement nor the edited one get us anywhere, do they?

 

[RossJarvis]

it's in the telegraph so can be safely ignored.

I can't believe you said that :shock: I'd always assumed the Telegraph was your paper of choice to hang behind the outhouse door.

I dare say the article was also deliberately polemical and provocative, however both the Telegraph and the Scu..sorry Mail occasionally let the odd bit of decent journalism slip through. I'd imagine the Grauniad is similar but I'm not going to check as the bleatings of that bunch of Pseudo-intellectual frauds usually makes me physically ill.

 

[Jacob]

Just thought I'd google "Guardian + post factual".
This is much more interesting than that rather silly telegraph article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nghazi-gop
Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many

 

[whiskywill]

Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many

My daughter-in-law is a professor of meteorology in a Canadian University and specialises in climate change research. She is not convinced the current changes are man made.

Enough said?

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - that approach to debate leads to such things as 'no-platforming', safe spaces in university common rooms, the Snowflake generation and a host of other phenomena discussed in various places lately. It leads to living in an information echo-chamber, and apparent incredulity and refusal to accept not only the result, the very idea that anybody might vote a different way when a democratic vote goes they way you don't want.

Grow up, accept that the Western world is a different place politically than it was last year, and like the rest of us, try to understand why.

 

[Jacob]

Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many

My daughter-in-law is a professor of meteorology in a Canadian University and specialises in climate change research. She is not convinced the current changes are man made.

Enough said?

No not enough said. She needs to be able to offer an alternative explanation of the evidence. I presume she hasn't been able to do this or she would be pretty well known by now!

 

[MIGNAL]

Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many

My daughter-in-law is a professor of meteorology in a Canadian University and specialises in climate change research. She is not convinced the current changes are man made.

Enough said?

Not really. She is obviously in a very small minority.

 

[RossJarvis]

Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many

My daughter-in-law is a professor of meteorology in a Canadian University and specialises in climate change research. She is not convinced the current changes are man made.

Enough said?

Not really. She is obviously in a very small minority.

I suppose it depends on the context. There is generally a great consensus on the "fact" that "climate change" is impacted by human activity, but the details of discerning what is part of the "natural order" of things and "man made" and the interplay between them may be less agreed upon. We are after all dealing (by we I mean them, I have no expertise at all) with very complex systems here and some things are harder to predict or discover than others.

As with most things, if we are not dealing with the science and know what the latest consensus is, if it exists, then we are still relying on the transmission of that information via some sort of media or other. That's the weakest link.

I'm sure the meteorologist mentioned is in a much better position to know about these things than me, but I don't know the context in which the statement is being made or in what vein it is being made.

Let's face it we're all in the dark and clueless about a hell of a lot more than we are clued about anything.

 

[MIGNAL]

The fact is that the vast majority of scientists that are involved in studying climate change are of the opinion that it is caused by human activity. Of course there are some who take a contrary view but in the greater scheme of things they represent a minority. That doesn't make the wrong in an absolute sense. I'm going with the majority though. It's far too complex for me to have even a passing understanding of the science, I'll defer to the majority of scientists.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

It's a bit like when the Guv of the bank of England said the pound would plummet if we left....seconds later, his opinion was rubbished by a politician. Personally, I believed the opinion of the expert in the field of banking and not the politician.

In terms of climate change, there's no question the majority of scientists who not just studied but also had other scientists peer review the data, agree that climate change is a genuine man made threat.

You need to choose who you're going to believe....the experts in that field....or an internet blogger?

Personally, I'm with the experts until evidence to the contrary can explain an alternative credible cause. The person who's family member is a prof and doesn't believe in climate change...I would be genuinely interested to hear her perspective on what led her to that conclusion as it might enlighten us all.

 

[RossJarvis]

The fact is that the vast majority of scientists that are involved in studying climate change are of the opinion that it is caused by human activity. Of course there are some who take a contrary view but in the greater scheme of things they represent a minority. That doesn't make the wrong in an absolute sense. I'm going with the majority though. It's far too complex for me to have even a passing understanding of the science, I'll defer to the majority of scientists.

I'll have to agree with you there, that's my position. Even if we're wrong I'm not sure what possible harm there is in trying to deal with it. Unless you're a Virginian coal miner or the boss of Exxon it seems like a win win situation all round.

One of the problems I was pointing to is that it's not uncommon for someone who would agree with the consensus to have their comments taken out of context and used by the deniers. I'm not saying that Whiskywill was doing this as I'm finding it hard to understand what point anyone's trying to make at this late date in the thread.

Apart from the fact that we're all agreed, including Jacob, that the Guardian's rubbish

 

[Jacob]

Jacob - that approach to debate leads to such things as 'no-platforming', safe spaces in university common rooms, the Snowflake generation and a host of other phenomena discussed in various places lately. It leads to living in an information echo-chamber, and apparent incredulity and refusal to accept not only the result, the very idea that anybody might vote a different way when a democratic vote goes they way you don't want.

Grow up, accept that the Western world is a different place politically than it was last year, and like the rest of us, try to understand why.

I'm not sure what all that is about. Is it something you read in the telegraph?

NB I think everybody "accepts" the result of the referendum. The head scratching is about what you do next and the answer isn't clear.
"Brexit means brexit" has the same logic as "a trip to the moon is a trip to the moon". There's nothing in there to show how it could be done, or even if it's possible at all.

 

[RogerS]

..... I'd imagine the Grauniad is similar but I'm not going to check as the bleatings of that bunch of Pseudo-intellectual frauds usually makes me physically ill.

I just choked on my coffee reading that.

I nominate it for Post of the Year =D>

 

[RogerS]

Just thought I'd google "Guardian + post factual".
This is much more interesting than that rather silly telegraph article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nghazi-gop
Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many

For the benefit of new readers, you have to realise that Jacob is a past master at stringing together sentences that have no reference to one another and instead sound like a cliche from Citizen Smith.

For example, take the above.

Just thought I'd google "Guardian + post factual". Out of curiosity I also Googled that and most definitely didn't come up with the article referred to in the next sentence. "Post-factual" does not appear in the implied article mentioned.

Moving on...."This is much more interesting than that rather silly telegraph article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nghazi-gop"

was written in 2014 and so I'm not sure of the relevance of this article - typical Guardianista "My editor has asked me to throw together 2000 words of hand-wringing meaningless piffle by tomorrow". It's rubbish. Just a stream of random letters that happen to form words. Any relationship between the words and actually forming a coherent sentence are coincidental.

OK ..last one

"Climate change is one of the big areas where the facts are ignored by many" Um, yes. I can make statements as well. The moon is made of green cheese. Tony Blair is a nice man. None of them add any new information to the thread.

 

[Inoffthered]

RogerS,
I admire your indefatigability however, intelligent and reasoned debate is impossible for many of the reasons you have highlighted.

Overall I suggest that the best solution is not to feed the troll.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I think we're all done here folks....would you say?

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Yes all done and becoming a little boring!