Oh Dear - he's gone and trumped them all!

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob - that approach to debate leads to such things as 'no-platforming', safe spaces in university common rooms, the Snowflake generation and a host of other phenomena discussed in various places lately. It leads to living in an information echo-chamber, and apparent incredulity and refusal to accept not only the result, the very idea that anybody might vote a different way when a democratic vote goes they way you don't want.

Grow up, accept that the Western world is a different place politically than it was last year, and like the rest of us, try to understand why.

.....The head scratching is about what you do next and the answer isn't clear.
"Brexit means brexit" has the same logic as "a trip to the moon is a trip to the moon". There's nothing in there to show how it could be done, or even if it's possible at all.

I think it's quite clear why the entire establishment is in a tizz about it. They held the referendum complacently expecting a Remain result; indeed they were so complacent, they didn't even get the Civil Service to work up any contingency plans for the event of a Leave vote. Given that there were only two possible results, and the opinion polls were within 10%, some might regard that as a rather strange omission.

Be that as it may, gummint and Civil Service now have to do something about it, and they are, to give them some credit. Personally, I think it will come as a shock to many people just how much of the UK's government is currently down to Brussels, or effectively directed from Brussels. That said, the more thought goes into how we disentangle ourselves before we trigger Article 50 the better.

 

[Jacob]

..... it will come as a shock to many people just how much of the UK's government is currently down to Brussels, or effectively directed from Brussels.

But we are "Brussels" - it's a partnership, cooperative, treaty, agreement, whatever you want to call it.
It's democratic - we have a role, a voice, an enormous amount of influence, and together - an enormous amount of power globally

That said, the more thought goes into how we disentangle ourselves before we trigger Article 50 the better.

Then we don't have a role, influence, global power, or a voice, which seems an insane choice to make.

 

[Jacob]

I think we're all done here folks....would you say?

Yep. They don't like the message, they have nothing to say - instead they are starting to attack the messengers.

 

[Chippyjoe]

Bob,

this thread should never have got off the ground in my opinion, and before everyone jumps on my back, it is only my opinion.

Something similar started on the Festool owners group, and was locked after about 2 posts.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

..... it will come as a shock to many people just how much of the UK's government is currently down to Brussels, or effectively directed from Brussels.

But we are "Brussels" - it's a partnership, cooperative, treaty, agreement, whatever you want to call it.
It's democratic - we have a role, a voice, an enormous amount of influence, and together - an enormous amount of power globally

That said, the more thought goes into how we disentangle ourselves before we trigger Article 50 the better.

Then we don't have a role, influence, global power, or a voice, which seems an insane choice to make.

The first part is complete rubbish. We used our veto how many times? 40? How many times did we get what we wanted? None at all. As for democracy - well, you can vote for MEPs who have virtually no authority, but not for Commissioners who are solely responsible for originating EU legislation. The sooner the UK is disentangled from that, the better.

As for our position post EU, we have a ready-made network in the Anglosphere nations and in the Commonwealth, which we've sadly neglected. We can go and trade with every nation on the planet (except the EU) on terms we can negotiate ourselves to be mutually advantageous, which we can't currently do. The EU is hardly likely to engage in a trade war with us, given that the UK is their single largest market, so a free trade deal seems very achievable.

I genuinely think the UK's prospects are better out of the EU - out of the single market (though with access to it, as every other nation on earth has), out of the Customs Union (so that we can negotiate our own deals around the world). We will be freer living under Common Law rather than Roman law, and crucially, able to elect and hold to account through the ballot box, those that govern us.

I really can't see a downside.

Genuine question now - and I am not setting anybody up asking this - what are the reasons for staying in the EU?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Sorry, CC - this is just inviting groundhog day. :lol:

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Sorry, CC - this is just inviting groundhog day. :lol:

I see what you're saying, Phil. However, everybody posting on this thread, with one exception, has managed a mature and considered debate. The 'one exception' has complained that politics deserves to be discussed. Let's give him one last opportunity to do so in a thoughtful way. If he can't manage it ..... well, the mods can soon snap a lock on, and that will probably be the end of ANY political debate on this forum, now or in the future.

 

[LarryS.]

After 2000 years of fighting each other we got together to work together, I for one mourn the loss of something that was collaborative. Much like my family it wasn't perfect, but then what is.
Trade agreements take years to negotiate, and now with a relatively small economy (compared to the eu) to imagine we have more power seems incongruous. I'm not sure how the economies of the commonwealth stack up, but to them an agreement with 20 something nations is of more value than 1.
I work in industry under eu regs and dealing with eu companies all the time, my job is going to get harder and my companies costs are going up, so we're worse off.

So thats my opinion, it might be right, it might be wrong, but that's it.

As for Trump? Makes me feel better about Brexit!


Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk

 

[Cheshirechappie]

After 2000 years of fighting each other we got together to work together, I for one mourn the loss of something that was collaborative. Much like my family it wasn't perfect, but then what is.

Thanks for that, Paul.

I do have some sympathy with that sentiment. I think if the EU had stopped at being the EEC - a free trade area and forum for nation states to debate matters of mutual interest - most people would have been more than content. The problems have arisen, I think, from the desire to integrate the nation states into one. The common currency in particular has been deeply damaging for the southern states, and utterly catastrophic for Greece.

I think Europe would be better off without the EU, but with something like the old EEC. If Brexit brings that closer by encouraging other nations to leave the EU, the better it would be in the long run for ordinary people across Europe.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yup...we're going round in circles now folks....trump...then Brexit etc. I do think we've reached a point where people's positions are clear and now they're just trenching in deeper and deeper. You're right about one thing Jacob, people are starting to attack the messengers. Personally I'm not sure whether that's due to their intransigence or sheer boredom but I honestly don't think we're going to resolve anything more in this thread. At least folks had a chance to really air their views so hopefully we can once again bury our heads in the sand and create some dust. I made a couple of scoops tonight and also a dovetailed face plate out of ply for my "G-jaws".

I'll leave this up overnight so you can have one more attempt to demonstrate how liberal, left, right you are and then I'll lock the thread.

 

[RobinBHM]

Jacob - that approach to debate leads to such things as 'no-platforming', safe spaces in university common rooms, the Snowflake generation and a host of other phenomena discussed in various places lately. It leads to living in an information echo-chamber, and apparent incredulity and refusal to accept not only the result, the very idea that anybody might vote a different way when a democratic vote goes they way you don't want.

Grow up, accept that the Western world is a different place politically than it was last year, and like the rest of us, try to understand why.

I'm not sure what all that is about. Is it something you read in the telegraph?

NB I think everybody "accepts" the result of the referendum. The head scratching is about what you do next and the answer isn't clear.
"Brexit means brexit" has the same logic as "a trip to the moon is a trip to the moon". There's nothing in there to show how it could be done, or even if it's possible at all.

Those in the remain camp assume disaster is inevitable, but the reality is the EU has many idealogical and economic problems with some half a dozen members that are considering a referendum and could leave. Huge unemployment issues in some countries, an over valued Euro, a German bank in difficulties, a French election looming with far right Le Pen. Thats without starting on the new trade we are now free to develop. The big worry is how brave our politicians will in forgetting the single market and making tarif free deals around the world.

Trump. Well I can see him getting bored soon and leaving it all to his cabinet. Why would anybody want all that stress at 70 anyway.

 

[Jacob]

Yup...we're going round in circles now folks....trump...then Brexit etc. I do think we've reached a point where people's positions are clear and now they're just trenching in deeper and deeper. You're right about one thing Jacob, people are starting to attack the messengers. Personally I'm not sure whether that's due to their intransigence or sheer boredom but I honestly don't think we're going to resolve anything more in this thread. At least folks had a chance to really air their views so hopefully we can once again bury our heads in the sand and create some dust. I made a couple of scoops tonight and also a dovetailed face plate out of ply for my "G-jaws".

I'll leave this up overnight so you can have one more attempt to demonstrate how liberal, left, right you are and then I'll lock the thread.

:lol: Attacking the messengers and, quite entertainingly, making a last minute attempt to justify their "post truth" viewpoints, re-enforced with a scintillatingly intelligent article from the Telegraph! :lol:
Plus a sinister threat from a brexiter - on the day Jo Cox's murderer was sentenced, and to round it off a climate change sceptic popped in to say hello! Didn't think there were any left :roll:

But all in all - it's very interesting and much better to have these sorts of chats than not. Better out than in (not the EU - better in than out!)

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Random Orbital Bob - I think you're right. I did try to keep sensible adult debate going (and thanks to PaulR and RobinBMH for posting in that spirit, and thanks to most other commenters on the thread), but I can't see this becoming anything other than a moderator's nightmare, now.

Ironic really. If you want to engage in political debate, p*ssing everybody else off isn't really the best way to promote it, or learn anything from it.

 

[Inoffthered]

It is the classic tactic of the liberal left and virtue signallers though,specifically designed to kill intelligent debate. Make ridiculous statements and conflate arguments. Showing a lack of comprehension that sees threats where none exist merely to paint themselves as a victim and disguise the paucity of their argument. Getting all moralistic and labelling and blaming swathes of the electorate as being responsible for the the murder of an MP yet slavishly following the doctrines of the self professed Marxists Corbyn and McDonnell who were (are) also IRA supporters and sympathisers.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

We also need to start with the assumption in all political discussion that every "statistic" and or "fact" is a lie if it comes from The Mail, The Express or The Telegraph and writ in stone and the word of God if it comes from The Observer, The Grauniad or The Independent.

 

[Jacob]

We also need to start with the assumption in all political discussion that every "statistic" and or "fact" is a lie if it comes from The Mail, The Express or The Telegraph and writ in stone and the word of God if it comes from The Observer, The Grauniad or The Independent.

Half true, but Observer, The Grauniad, The Independent are not infallible and nobody thinks so either.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Blimey....taking my son to his trumpet lesson before locking the thread was expensive!!

Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee