Oh Dear - he's gone and trumped them all!

[Jacob]

[....I knew of one school in Sheffield where over 100 different first languages were spoken,

Really? Do you have a list? it seems unlikely to me. One thing you can be sure of it that after one or two years they'd all be speaking english

There is still a large burden in benefits being paid to the low waged in terms of housing benefit, tax credits etc, plus the zero or minimal return from income tax.

We need a sensible high minimum wage for all and a housing policy, otherwise we just subsidise unscrupulous employers and landlords.

Actually I don't see benefits as a "burden". Quite the opposite; an investment in human capital, the most cost effective way of reducing the destructive effects of poverty, money which finds its way rapidly back into the economy and keeps the wheels turning. It might also free people to make improvements in their lives and get back into work, training, education or other constructive situations.

Or to put it another way - do you want your neighbours to be miserable and poor, with all the associated social problems?

 

[RossJarvis]

[....I knew of one school in Sheffield where over 100 different first languages were spoken,

Really? Do you have a list? it seems unlikely to me. One thing you can be sure of it that after one or two years they'd all be speaking english

There is still a large burden in benefits being paid to the low waged in terms of housing benefit, tax credits etc, plus the zero or minimal return from income tax.

We need a sensible high minimum wage for all and a housing policy, otherwise we just subsidise unscrupulous employers and landlords.

Actually I don't see benefits as a "burden". Quite the opposite; an investment in human capital, the most cost effective way of reducing the destructive effects of poverty, money which finds its way rapidly back into the economy and keeps the wheels turning. It might also free people to make improvements in their lives and get back into work, training, education or other constructive situations.

Or to put it another way - do you want your neighbours to be miserable and poor, with all the associated social problems?

Jacob, you really do need to read what people are writing and understand it, rather than reading into it what you think they are saying. It may also be an idea not to put two contradictory statements so close together.

 

[dzj]

Absolutely spot on. The ONLY reason we have the lowest unemployment figures for years is that we have the HIGHEST self-employment levels for years, where an enormous percentage of those people are scratching around for any kind of income and to whom Minimum Wage is just an aspiration.

Some authors refer to this social class as the precariat.

 

[Jacob]

....
Jacob, you really do need to read what people are writing and understand it, rather than reading into it what you think they are saying. It may also be an idea not to put two contradictory statements so close together.

Yes sorry I tend to react to cues. The alt.right have a set of memes which crop up a lot, but sometimes quite innocently!

 

[devonwoody]

I congratulate all on their tenacity in able to respond to leftish and rightish views. :wink:

 

[RossJarvis]

....
Jacob, you really do need to read what people are writing and understand it, rather than reading into it what you think they are saying. It may also be an idea not to put two contradictory statements so close together.

Yes sorry I tend to react to cues. The alt.right have a set of memes which crop up a lot, but sometimes quite innocently!

Thanks for the apology

 

[DennisCA]

Even better. Stop breeding like rabbits. Then we could all enjoy a bacon buttie.

I say you lot would you mind not doing that!

Unfortunately the urge to reproduce is strong - strongest when under pressure, threat, disruption, war, famine etc etc -not just with humans but throughout the plant and animal world. The pressure to perpetuate ones own genes is much stronger than the pressure to reproduce in a conveniently sensible way. It's about survival of the species. Population growth is greatest where quality of life is low and uncivilised.
Large families are in the 3rd world, or people from the third world yet to become cosily middle class.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... urope.html .It's about survival of the species.
Simple answer to this is make sure these people are secure and have a reasonable livelihood and their birthrate will fall to 1.79 per woman.

Don't panic says Hans Rosling on overpopulation, I recommend everyone take the time to watch it, very educational.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FACK2knC08E

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Well I will say one thing which is that by and large the protagonists on either side of centre have behaved like gentlemen in this thread. I do like to see grown men recognising that their view is not necessarily a monopoly on the truth and to give other people the space to explore contrary ideas....without going down the playground route. You never know, maybe the forum has moved on in it's maturity over the last 2 years? Or maybe the combination of the two earthquakes in recent politics ie Brexit and Trump have rehearsed the arguments so much that the sting has gone out of defending an particular belief system. Who knows, but whatever is driving this reasonable "grace" then please continue.

Now where did I put that new treatise on sharpening......

 

[RobinBHM]

I congratulate all on their tenacity in able to respond to leftish and rightish views. :wink:

=D> =D> =D>

spot any similarity with sharpening discussions?..........

I'll start: its much better to use a honing guide, you will never get a chisel sharp enough by hand and you absolutely must flatten and polish the back.

 

[RobinBHM]

Well I will say one thing which is that by and large the protagonists on either side of centre have behaved like gentlemen in this thread. I do like to see grown men recognising that their view is not necessarily a monopoly on the truth and to give other people the space to explore contrary ideas....without going down the playground route. You never know, maybe the forum has moved on in it's maturity over the last 2 years? Or maybe the combination of the two earthquakes in recent politics ie Brexit and Trump have rehearsed the arguments so much that the sting has gone out of defending an particular belief system. Who knows, but whatever is driving this reasonable "grace" then please continue.

Now where did I put that new treatise on sharpening......

Many thanks for the mods for allowing it to continue , Im guessing a close eye has been kept with one finger hovering over the 'lock thread' button!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Yes...and the funny thing is, when people behave like grown ups, it means discussion like this becomes less of an issue and more like a digital off topic "pub" which is fine. The moment it gets personal then it just reduces it to the gutter and the mods have a duty to turn it off. Clearly there will always be a spread of views on any political topic but if people can demonstrate some respect for the people behind the views then we're doing well.

 

[Jacob]

The difference between sharpening and politics for me is that I couldn't give a monkey's what anybody says about sharpening - I made my mind up a long time ago, I just muscle in the hopes of saving a benighted beginner from a lifetime of difficulty, but I am interested in what they say about politics, and why.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

How very ironic Jacob...if only we could see the things we say (write) the way other people see them! I only mention that because one of the things that stood out for me when I joined this parish was just how very much you always defended your view on sharpening. It's interesting to hear you say you don't really care

Remind me to be abroad when you stumble across an issue you feel passionate about :shock:

 

[Jacob]

How very ironic Jacob...if only we could see the things we say (write) the way other people see them! I only mention that because one of the things that stood out for me when I joined this parish was just how very much you always defended your view on sharpening. It's interesting to hear you say you don't really care

Remind me to be abroad when you stumble across an issue you feel passionate about :shock:

What I meant was that what people think about politics is really important and affects us all in a big way - Brexit could change our lives dramatically. Already is doing in fact.
It seems a big part of the brexit and the Trump vote was from people who feel that they are not listened to by the establishment and I think they are right about that at least.
But at the same time there's a popular veto on talking to and listening to other people about politics, religion etc. so a lot of people never get to talk about important stuff except to people who think the same as themselves. I get a strong sense of that in threads like this - people are surprised to hear alternative views as all they know of them is as portrayed and denigrated in the Daily Mail etc.
There's a veto on talking to your neighbour but no veto on being bombarded by the opinions of the Murdoch press, which can't be a good thing.

 

[RogerS]

How very ironic Jacob...if only we could see the things we say (write) the way other people see them! I only mention that because one of the things that stood out for me when I joined this parish was just how very much you always defended your view on sharpening. It's interesting to hear you say you don't really care

Remind me to be abroad when you stumble across an issue you feel passionate about :shock:

.....
There's a veto on talking to your neighbour but no veto on being bombarded by the opinions of the Murdoch press, which can't be a good thing.

That is self-imposed, Jacob, by the individuals.

 

[Jacob]

How very ironic Jacob...if only we could see the things we say (write) the way other people see them! I only mention that because one of the things that stood out for me when I joined this parish was just how very much you always defended your view on sharpening. It's interesting to hear you say you don't really care

Remind me to be abroad when you stumble across an issue you feel passionate about :shock:

.....
There's a veto on talking to your neighbour but no veto on being bombarded by the opinions of the Murdoch press, which can't be a good thing.

That is self-imposed, Jacob, by the individuals.

No it's become conventional. Start talking about politics in all sorts of company (or on a woodwork chat group!) and people will say "no politics/religion/etc here please" and people get nervous, even upset - they are so unused to it.
Brave New World (or is it 1984?) we are being told to shut up by some mysterious powers that be - but let us have press freedom to publish any old malevolent nonsense, loudly and often.

 

[RogerS]

There's a veto on talking to your neighbour but no veto on being bombarded by the opinions of the Murdoch press, which can't be a good thing.

That is self-imposed, Jacob, by the individuals.

No it's become conventional. Start talking about politics in all sorts of company (or on a woodwork chat group!) and people will say "no politics/religion/etc here please" and people get nervous, even upset - they are so unused to it.
Brave New World (or is it 1984?) we are being told to shut up by some mysterious powers that be - but let us have press freedom to publish any old malevolent nonsense, loudly and often.

I wish you would stop moving the goalposts and just randomly throwing out words for effect.

You quite specifically said "There's a veto on talking to your neighbour" and that was what I was referring to. We've all got neighbours, some close at hand, some further away. It is personal choice whether or not one talks politics, religion or the price of cornflakes. Nothing at all (well, maybe in your own head) about 1984 or some mysterious powers.

Likewise "no veto on being bombarded by the opinions of the Murdoch press". Personal choice. No-one is forcing you to buy the Daily Mail, Jacob. It's your choice.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The point about people living in media bubbles is a good one. It's something that has been discussed in a number of places recently. It seems to be particularly a problem among those who rely on the likes of Twitter and Facebook for their news feeds, since they rely on users 'liking' various information feeds and thus excluding ones they don't immediately 'like', thus strongly reinforcing whatever preconceptions they may have and excluding other views entirely. 'Echo chamber' is a phrase that's been used.

Discussion of politics is difficult - it's very easy to deeply offend someone inadvertently. There are very good reasons why politics, religion and *** are regarded as topics to be avoided in polite conversation. The pub is another matter - but you may find yourself nursing a broken nose if your views don't quite match those of the locals. You may also turn into the pub bore.

The Murdoch press is actually quite diverse. For example, the Times took a quite strong Remain position, the Sun leaned more to Leave (I think...I'm not a Sun reader). One thing Murdoch has always been good at is gauging public opinion and tailoring his offerings accordingly. His profits depend on it.

Among the more silvertopped generation, I think if you formed your worldview by listening to the BBC and reading the Guardian, Brexit would have come as a shock. You would have thought that those campaigning for leave were just a noisy bunch of mavericks and fanatics banging on about a bee in their bonnet. However, read more widely (listen to the BBC and read theTelegraph, for example) and you wouldn't have been quite so sure.

One thought that does come to mind is that if you choose not to read or view a particular news and opinion source, don't slag it off. When someone says something along the lines of, "The Daily Mail/Daily Mirror/Telegraph/Guardian (delete as applicable) is a vile rag with disgraceful opinions, and I never look at it" they just look ignorant and bigoted. How would they know what opinions are expressed if they've never bothered to actually check? It just sounds like the echo-chamber again - my Twitter feed friends say this newspaper is vile, so it must be and I'll tell everybody it is.

There's lots of information out there, though filtering it can be tricky. The internet is awash with rubbish, with nuggets of gold here and there. Most of us can't spend all day trawling through it all, so inevitably we come back to our trusted sources. It is just worth bearing in mind that broadening the search occasionally can broaden the outlook.

 

[RogerS]

....The internet is awash with rubbish, ....

That is sadly true. What is even sadder is that many people - both young and old - take what they read as gospel. And please don't get me started on Faecebook and Twatter.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

The problem with politics/***/religion is they're belief systems rather than more mechanical forms of reason and as such cant be "proven" in the conventional sense. Also being belief systems they become extremely personal, for which read emotional when attacked and unless the protagonists are mature enough to show restraint......... well you know what happens!

It's for this reason that as a topic for discussion they're banned from Free Mason functions etc etc and of course from many public forums. Every now and then political topics come round which are so earth shatteringly large in terms of change that it seems appropriate to let them get aired.

My personal view is that it is a very good thing to air views across all spectrums in respect of politics because we do live in the age of "confirmation bias" or the echo chamber as Cheshire put it. I think that's terribly damaging and its exactly the same reason why parliament needs a robust party in opposition! Even those on the blue side of the house think democracy is better served when the opposition has some teeth!

So if we're able to listen to alternate views without slinging toys out the pram then all power to you.

But Jacob, the mods here or indeed other administrators of different groups don't shut down public debate because they're afraid of it, they shut it down because people with no self control or sense of decorum behave unreasonably which spoils the space for the majority. it's no more complicated or conspiratorial than that.