Oh Dear - he's gone and trumped them all!

[Bm101]

Been staying away from this thread.
But then I found this on ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ww2-anderson- ... SwPCVX-k0T

Got all the hallmarks of promoting this thread from political to rabid. Would you look at the workmanship on that. They'll be making Etsy coffee tables out of it next. 8) It's only fifty notes to keep your family safe after all.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Been staying away from this thread.
But then I found this on ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ww2-anderson- ... SwPCVX-k0T

Got all the hallmarks of promoting this thread from political to rabid. Would you look at the workmanship on that. They'll be making Etsy coffee tables out of it next. 8) It's only fifty notes to keep your family safe after all.

I think, quite possibly, you just won the internet.

 

[Jacob]

This is old news, it doesnt matter how popular Jeremy is with the labour party members, modern politics occupies the centre ground, the ideals of the old 2 party politics to right and left is really not so relevent as we move further into this century.

I don't agree with that, recent politics have been lurching both right (trump, brexit) and left (Corbin, Bernie Sanders)

Yep. Centre ground is being vacated. Only yesterdays people remain.

 

[Jacob]

....
I think its a shame Jeremy Corbyn is putting the party to the far left making labour marginal. I think he is a man of principal and like the fact he is different to the bland career politicians we've had recently, they all seem to have the same media school learning soundbites and body language for TV.......

So why do you want Corbyn to be like the others?

 

[Max Power]

A move to the right has been on the cards for a while . France will be next to follow , resentment to failed multiculturalism will be the catalyst there

 

[Steve Maskery]

FWIW, I think that The Donald will end up alienating absolutely everybody.
Obviously the Democrats are against him but so are many in his own party. And now, less than a week after winning the election, he has said he will keep Obamacare, hasn't given any thought to prosecuting Clinton, and the Great Wall could be a fence, all things that he made a great deal of during the campaign. So when little or none of that materialises, he will have even his own voters angry at him, too.

We live in interesting times.

 

[Jacob]

A move to the right has been on the cards for a while . France will be next to follow , resentment to failed multiculturalism will be the catalyst there

Or to the left. It's the centre ground which is emptying.
"Failed multiculturalism" will be the scapegoat for some but the issues in France are more about the "ignored" who are a varied group including immigrants and indigenous French.

Similar scenario here and in the USA: "France's latest elections showed a sharp rise in "anti-system" voters, said political scientist Thomas Guenole of Vox Politica. "It's the intersection of two things: a deep economic crisis, and a system that cut France in two — the France of insiders and the France of outsiders," he said."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/french-prime ... tml?ref=gs

 

[Inoffthered]

It is truly ironic that the so called liberal left are the ones on the streets demonstrating against a democratically elected president while simultaneously calling the other side fascists, you couldn't make it up.

That a Guardian journalist should tweet about needing "a presidential assassination" was deplorable (imagine how the BBC and the Guardian would have reacted if a UKIPper had come out with something like that.

Seeing the howls of outrage and tears emanating from the Democratic snowflakes I am reminded of the saying that “moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the ***** with dignity.”

 

[Steve Maskery]

But is it really democratic when the person with the most votes doesn't actually get elected? Arguably not, I'd say.
I agree 100% about the assassination remark. OK, maybe lots of people would actually welcome it, but we should not be relying on violence to solve our differences in the world. That is way of IS.

 

[Max Power]

But is it really democratic when the person with the most votes doesn't actually get elected? Arguably not, I'd say.

It's the same system as previous US elections , so there's no excuse to bleat about it on that basis .
The man won fair and square by a decent margin .
People will always wine if they don't get their preferred option. Look no further than our own Brexit vote , where the majority voted for , but the losers still refuse to accept the result :roll:

 

[MIGNAL]

Except of course that Farage wasn't going to accept a 52 - 48 win for remain. he stated as much before the referendum.
Trump would accept the result. . . . but only if he won.

 

[Jacob]

...
People will always wine if they don't get their preferred option. Look no further than our own Brexit vote , where the majority voted for , but the losers still refuse to accept the result :roll:

They accept the result but point out that Farage would not have accepted if the margin had gone the other way. He does a lot of whining himself - and still takes a large salary from the EU even though he does nothing at all to earn it - not even negotiating the details.

You can't make such fundamental changes with such an inconclusive marginal vote. Still less can you commit to unconditional Brexit without knowing the terms and all the details. Parliament has to vote on it and is entitled to ignore the referendum - which was only advisory to start with. The "will of the people" is obviously very undecided!
If the brexiters don't like the result they will have to resort to the democratic process at the polling booths, just like the rest of us.
Personally I think Brexit is impossible and we will be fobbed off with all sorts of confused wheeling and dealing by feeble minded government, in fear of of the mob and the media.

 

[finneyb]

...
People will always wine if they don't get their preferred option. Look no further than our own Brexit vote , where the majority voted for , but the losers still refuse to accept the result :roll:

They accept the result but point out that Farage would not have accepted if the margin had gone the other way. He does a lot of whining himself - and still takes a large salary from the EU even though he does nothing at all to earn it - not even negotiating the details.

You can't make such fundamental changes with such an inconclusive marginal vote. Still less can you commit to unconditional Brexit without knowing the terms and all the details. Parliament has to vote on it and is entitled to ignore the referendum - which was only advisory to start with. The "will of the people" is obviously very undecided!
If the brexiters don't like the result they will have to resort to the democratic process at the polling booths, just like the rest of us.
Personally I think Brexit is impossible and we will be fobbed off with all sorts of confused wheeling and dealing by feeble minded government, in fear of of the mob and the media.

+1

 

[Jacob]

It is truly ironic that the so called liberal left are the ones on the streets demonstrating against a democratically elected president while simultaneously calling the other side fascists, you couldn't make it up......

Not ironic it's democracy.
Everybody (including you) is free to demonstrate and argue for/against whatever they like - that's how democracy works, in between elections.
Calling them fascists seems fair enough - the similarities are much too close for comfort.

Good to see them turning out. Better still if the Mexicans could organise a general strike to defend themselves!

 

[Inoffthered]

But is it really democratic when the person with the most votes doesn't actually get elected? Arguably not, I'd say.
I agree 100% about the assassination remark. OK, maybe lots of people would actually welcome it, but we should not be relying on violence to solve our differences in the world. That is way of IS.

Trump won the election on the basis of the Electoral College system that they have in the USA. The president has never been elected on the basis of the popular vote. One could argue that the Electoral College system is flawed but to argue it after the event shows poor judgement.

Also, I wonder how many of those now banging on about the popular vote argument have previously told UKIP to suck it up for only getting one seat in parliament despite attracting 3.8m votes compared with the Limp Dumbs 8 seats with a total 2.4m votes and the SNP 56 seats with a total vote of 1.4m. Also the BBC seems to champion the popular vote argument but ignores the 17m+ voters for Brexit because the result did not fit with the BBC's interests.

I agree with the comments that in democracy one has the right to demonstrate, but there is also a duty to accept the result of the democratic process. The hysteria being driven by certain elements of the media is shameful. The BBC is a disgrace and has ceased to be a reporter of news and is now a propagandist for the Labour party.

 

[Jacob]

......but there is also a duty to accept the result of the democratic process. .....

Nobody denies the result of the referendum. The question is what you do with it, as unfortunately there was no consideration of how the thing would be implemented. Also it was quite clearly "advisory", like an opinion poll. Govt has no obligation to follow impossible advice.
If a referendum had said we should all fly to the moon how would the government deal with that?
The real issue is how you deal with the mass dissatisfaction which caused the result - being literal and simplistic won't benefit anybody, simple "Brexit" is not possible, not least because nobody knows how to do it, and all the indications suggest it will be a fiasco. It already is a fiasco!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

......but there is also a duty to accept the result of the democratic process. .....

Nobody denies the result of the referendum. The question is what you do with it, as unfortunately there was no consideration of how the thing would be implemented. Also it was quite clearly "advisory", like an opinion poll. Govt has no obligation to follow impossible advice.
If a referendum had said we should all fly to the moon how would the government deal with that?
The real issue is how you deal with the mass dissatisfaction which caused the result - being literal and simplistic won't benefit anybody, simple "Brexit" is not possible, not least because nobody knows how to do it, and all the indications suggest it will be a fiasco. It already is a fiasco!

The fact it was advisory was silly. What is the point of getting everyone to turn out on vote if it's not going to be acted upon?

I don't know, but I feel like there must be a legal reason why the referendum could not be considered legally binding. However, the result is not in doubt, it's the wishes of the majority and in my opinion, the result should be respected. These legal challenges do nothing but degrade our imitation of democracy. Parliament is sovereign, but was never designed to represent people on single major issues like this, parliament works based on the best all around approach a candidate puts forward. A generalised view of things.

In this type of binary decision and yes, it is binary, I do believe direct democracy is the best way. It works elsewhere. I don't want political party policy and whipping to influence the outcome of a major issue I vote on. it's not right.

 

[Jacob]

......but there is also a duty to accept the result of the democratic process. .....

Nobody denies the result of the referendum. The question is what you do with it, as unfortunately there was no consideration of how the thing would be implemented. Also it was quite clearly "advisory", like an opinion poll. Govt has no obligation to follow impossible advice.
If a referendum had said we should all fly to the moon how would the government deal with that?
The real issue is how you deal with the mass dissatisfaction which caused the result - being literal and simplistic won't benefit anybody, simple "Brexit" is not possible, not least because nobody knows how to do it, and all the indications suggest it will be a fiasco. It already is a fiasco!

The fact it was advisory was silly. What is the point of getting everyone to turn out on vote if it's not going to be acted upon?

I don't know, but I feel like there must be a legal reason why the referendum could not be considered legally binding. However, the result is not in doubt, it's the wishes of the majority and in my opinion, the result should be respected. These legal challenges do nothing but degrade our imitation of democracy. Parliament is sovereign, but was never designed to represent people on single major issues like this, parliament works based on the best all around approach a candidate puts forward. A generalised view of things.

In this type of binary decision and yes, it is binary, I do believe direct democracy is the best way. It works elsewhere. I don't want political party policy and whipping to influence the outcome of a major issue I vote on. it's not right.

Yebbut nobody knows how to do it or how much it will cost and if there's any point in it at all. As I said - might as well have instructed the govt to fly us all to the moon. They wouldn't do it because they couldn't do it. With Brexit it'll be a messy fudge which will go on for years.
The fault is Cameron's - he gave no thought at all about what to do if it was yes for brexit. The other brexiteers had no idea either and still haven't

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

You have to love the irony of the leavers who claim their vote was in support of parliamentary sovereignty don't you?

The recent legal case unequivocally ruled that it is unlawful for anything other than parliamentary sovereignty (ie correct due process) to trigger A50.

So now, you literally couldn't ask for a more clear definition of precisely what that sovereignty means....but...nope....not good enough...scrap that...we want the will of the people to over-ride it. Not sure about post factual politics, we certainly have entered a very strange era in politics when people scream from the rooftops what they think they want and then when they get it, reject it out of hand.

 

[RobinBHM]

Maybe we dont have an easy solution to exit the EU.

However neither did the UK sign up to become a federal Europe which is the ideal of European Parliament.

The Eurozone countries joined single currency without meeting the requirements and there are serious fundamental underlying issues with Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy and soon France all with serious financial problems. Not to mention the Deutsche bank crisis.

The EU and especially the Single currency Eurozone needs reform.

The Remainers who believe it is all a mess and wont work need to consider the long term dangers of staying in a EU that wont want to reform, in or out I dont think there is an easy path.