No Fault Evictions

[Jacob]

It's just like people who see a need for a religion in order for their lives to work.. They DON'T need one! Society can function quite well without one.

Examples? Where is this non socialist utopia? Liz Truss was supposed to lead us to this promised land. Brexit was supposed to be a step in the right direction. Where did it all go wrong?

....
We've got a historical record of what happens when socialism and socialists exceed their remit, Russia being a prime example. You can't get a more socialist country than Russia and look at its history since the 1917 revolution. That is ultimately where socialism leads.

That was communism and very much their own version.
Arguably an improvement on the imperialist slave state which preceded it, in a few ways at least, for some of the time.
Ended December 25, 1991. The new regime degenerated into a dictatorship and so-called "free market" gangster economy, influenced by neo-liberalism from USA and UK.
Russia was never remotely socialist in the democratic UK way e.g. as exemplified by the Attlee government.

 

[woodieallen]

Will anyone ever go to prison for Grenfell? Or Post Office/Horizon? Or the contaminated blood scandal? (To name just the ones that immediately spring to mind) No one was ever found guilty for Hillsborough (apart from a club official for a minor H&S breach). These public inquiries are all very well, but where's the justice?

With a bit of luck Gareth Jenkins will be charged for perjury and go to prison. Ideally a lot more of them would. But like you am not optimistic.

 

[woodieallen]

.......

Until the UK gets rid of this left wing socialist nonsense and accepts that a meritocratic society rewards those who work hard and prosper, this once proud nation will never prosper to the level it could attain if it wasn't held back by left wing dinosaurs who believe that it is their right to share the fruits of other people's hard work.
.....

Ne'er a truer word posted.

 

[Jacob]

Ne'er a truer word posted.

Where is this meritocratic paradise you all talk about?
Is there an example anywhere in the world?
Nobody ever answers this question!
You'd think somebody would at least chip in with "Singapore" or something equally irrelevant.

 

[John Brown]

It's just like people who see a need for a religion in order for their lives to work.. They DON'T need one! Society can function quite well without one.
Similarly Socialism isn't necessary for society to function and is probably the biggest reason why the UK isn't prospering as well as it should...precisely because socialism depresses society to it's lowest denominator level of aspiration.

Until the UK gets rid of this left wing socialist nonsense and accepts that a meritocratic society rewards those who work hard and prosper, this once proud nation will never prosper to the level it could attain if it wasn't held back by left wing dinosaurs who believe that it is their right to share the fruits of other people's hard work.
We've got a historical record of what happens when socialism and socialists exceed their remit, Russia being a prime example. You can't get a more socialist country than Russia and look at its history since the 1917 revolution. That is ultimately where socialism leads.

"Once proud nation".
Sigh....

 

[paulrbarnard]

Where is this meritocratic paradise you all talk about?
Is there an example anywhere in the world?
Nobody ever answers this question!
You'd think somebody would at least chip in with "Singapore" or something equally irrelevant.

ChatGPT

Prompt: Where is considered to be the most meritocratic country in the world both present and past

Meritocracy refers to a system in which individuals are rewarded and advanced based on their abilities and achievements rather than on their social class, wealth, or connections. While no country is perfectly meritocratic, certain nations have been recognized for their efforts to create systems where talent and effort are the main determinants of success. Below is an overview of countries often considered highly meritocratic in both the present and the past.

### Present

1. **Singapore**:
- **Education System**: Singapore has a highly competitive and rigorous education system that identifies talent early on. The government's policies focus on nurturing individual potential regardless of socio-economic background, with scholarships and opportunities for those who excel.
- **Public Sector**: Singapore's public sector is known for being competitive and promoting individuals based on merit, with a significant emphasis on performance and results.

2. **Sweden**:
- **Equality of Opportunity**: Sweden has a strong social safety net that ensures high levels of education, healthcare, and social mobility. Access to education and job opportunities is highly egalitarian, promoting meritocracy.
- **Workplace Equality**: Sweden scores highly in workplace equality, focusing on equal pay and opportunities based on competence and performance.

3. **Germany**:
- **Education and Apprenticeships**: Germany’s apprenticeship system is a model for skill-based meritocracy, where individuals are trained and promoted based on their technical skills and qualifications.
- **Social Mobility**: Germany ranks high in terms of social mobility, especially in STEM fields, where meritocratic principles are deeply embedded.

4. **United States**:
- **Entrepreneurship and Innovation**: Despite challenges related to inequality, the U.S. is often seen as a land of opportunity for those who are exceptionally talented, particularly in sectors like technology, academia, and business.
- **Higher Education**: Top universities in the U.S. (e.g., Ivy League schools, Stanford, MIT) admit students largely based on academic merit and achievements.

5. **South Korea**:
- **Educational System**: South Korea places enormous emphasis on education and standardized exams, making the education system highly competitive and meritocratic.
- **Corporate Promotions**: In South Korean companies, promotions are often closely tied to performance, especially in major conglomerates like Samsung and Hyundai.

### Past

1. **Ancient China (during the Imperial Examination System)**:
- **Imperial Examinations**: China introduced a meritocratic civil service system during the Sui and Tang dynasties, where candidates were selected based on their performance in rigorous exams rather than their family background. This system lasted for centuries and is often cited as one of the earliest examples of institutionalized meritocracy.

2. **Ancient Athens**:
- **Direct Democracy and Participation**: In ancient Athens, political officeholders were often chosen by lot (random selection), but public influence was largely driven by individuals' rhetorical and intellectual abilities. Philosophers like Socrates and Plato emphasized merit-based roles in governance, particularly in leadership.

3. **The United Kingdom (19th Century)**:
- **Civil Service Reforms**: In the 19th century, the UK introduced merit-based civil service exams, shifting away from patronage and nepotism. These reforms laid the foundation for a more meritocratic government.

4. **Post-War Japan (1950s to 1980s)**:
- **Economic Growth and Merit-Based Promotions**: During Japan's post-war economic boom, the corporate culture emphasized long-term employment with promotions and advancements largely based on individual performance and contribution to the company, particularly in industries like electronics and automobiles.

### Summary
- **Present**: Countries like Singapore, Sweden, Germany, and South Korea are widely regarded as highly meritocratic today, particularly in education and job sectors.
- **Past**: Historical examples like ancient China’s imperial examination system and the UK's civil service reforms stand out as attempts to institutionalize merit-based advancement.

However, even in these cases, no system is purely meritocratic, as factors like wealth, race, and social connections can still influence outcomes. The balance between meritocracy and equality of opportunity varies across regions and eras.


Good to see that the UK was once considered meritocratic, unfortunately 2 centuries ago...

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Singapore GDP per capita 1960 - $428
Singapore GDP per capita 2022 - $88,414.

It would appear they're doing something right.

 

[Jacob]

ChatGPT

Prompt: Where is considered to be the most meritocratic country in the world both present and past

Meritocracy refers to a system in which individuals are rewarded and advanced based on their abilities and achievements rather than on their social class, wealth, or connections. While no country is perfectly meritocratic, certain nations have been recognized for their efforts to create systems where talent and effort are the main determinants of success. Below is an overview of countries often considered highly meritocratic in both the present and the past.

### Present

1. **Singapore**:
- **Education System**: Singapore has a highly competitive and rigorous education system that identifies talent early on. The government's policies focus on nurturing individual potential regardless of socio-economic background, with scholarships and opportunities for those who excel.
- **Public Sector**: Singapore's public sector is known for being competitive and promoting individuals based on merit, with a significant emphasis on performance and results.

2. **Sweden**:
- **Equality of Opportunity**: Sweden has a strong social safety net that ensures high levels of education, healthcare, and social mobility. Access to education and job opportunities is highly egalitarian, promoting meritocracy.
- **Workplace Equality**: Sweden scores highly in workplace equality, focusing on equal pay and opportunities based on competence and performance.

3. **Germany**:
- **Education and Apprenticeships**: Germany’s apprenticeship system is a model for skill-based meritocracy, where individuals are trained and promoted based on their technical skills and qualifications.
- **Social Mobility**: Germany ranks high in terms of social mobility, especially in STEM fields, where meritocratic principles are deeply embedded.

4. **United States**:
- **Entrepreneurship and Innovation**: Despite challenges related to inequality, the U.S. is often seen as a land of opportunity for those who are exceptionally talented, particularly in sectors like technology, academia, and business.
- **Higher Education**: Top universities in the U.S. (e.g., Ivy League schools, Stanford, MIT) admit students largely based on academic merit and achievements.

5. **South Korea**:
- **Educational System**: South Korea places enormous emphasis on education and standardized exams, making the education system highly competitive and meritocratic.
- **Corporate Promotions**: In South Korean companies, promotions are often closely tied to performance, especially in major conglomerates like Samsung and Hyundai.

### Past

1. **Ancient China (during the Imperial Examination System)**:
- **Imperial Examinations**: China introduced a meritocratic civil service system during the Sui and Tang dynasties, where candidates were selected based on their performance in rigorous exams rather than their family background. This system lasted for centuries and is often cited as one of the earliest examples of institutionalized meritocracy.

2. **Ancient Athens**:
- **Direct Democracy and Participation**: In ancient Athens, political officeholders were often chosen by lot (random selection), but public influence was largely driven by individuals' rhetorical and intellectual abilities. Philosophers like Socrates and Plato emphasized merit-based roles in governance, particularly in leadership.

3. **The United Kingdom (19th Century)**:
- **Civil Service Reforms**: In the 19th century, the UK introduced merit-based civil service exams, shifting away from patronage and nepotism. These reforms laid the foundation for a more meritocratic government.

4. **Post-War Japan (1950s to 1980s)**:
- **Economic Growth and Merit-Based Promotions**: During Japan's post-war economic boom, the corporate culture emphasized long-term employment with promotions and advancements largely based on individual performance and contribution to the company, particularly in industries like electronics and automobiles.

### Summary
- **Present**: Countries like Singapore, Sweden, Germany, and South Korea are widely regarded as highly meritocratic today, particularly in education and job sectors.
- **Past**: Historical examples like ancient China’s imperial examination system and the UK's civil service reforms stand out as attempts to institutionalize merit-based advancement.

However, even in these cases, no system is purely meritocratic, as factors like wealth, race, and social connections can still influence outcomes. The balance between meritocracy and equality of opportunity varies across regions and eras.


Good to see that the UK was once considered meritocratic, unfortunately 2 centuries ago...

ChatGPT!
An echo chamber for populist opinions, they being in the majority.
Nevertheless you have to note the amount of state intervention referred to in all of them, to achieve these dubious ratings! It wouldn't just happen on its own.
Also there is no mention of "the many" or the "working class" and how they got along.

 

[paulrbarnard]

ChatGPT!
An echo chamber for populist opinions, they being in the majority.
Nevertheless you have to note the amount of state intervention referred to in all of them, to achieve these dubious ratings! It wouldn't just happen on its own.
Also there is no mention of "the many" or the "working class" and how they got along.

Better than unpopulist opinion I suppose.

Yes it does need the state to enable the environment for meritocracy. That’s the point many here have been trying to make. So called socialist governments inhibit the progress of meritocracy by focusing on dumbing down to the lowest common denominator or at best mediocrity.
The Labour concept of the working class is a historical anachronism. Unfortunately a large focus is now on the non-working class while the actual working class is what would have been considered middle class in days gone by.

 

[John Brown]

Singapore GDP per capita 1960 - $428
Singapore GDP per capita 2022 - $88,414.

It would appear they're doing something right.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67014420

 

[ey_tony]

ChatGPT!
An echo chamber for populist opinions, they being in the majority.
Nevertheless you have to note the amount of state intervention referred to in all of them, to achieve these dubious ratings! It wouldn't just happen on its own.
Also there is no mention of "the many" or the "working class" and how they got along.

How do you determine who is working class and who isn't?
The only people who keep harping on about the working class are the extremist left wingers determined to see division where it doesn't exist. Thankfully most people don't think like that.
With few exceptions of those who don't need to work for a living, most people actually do, therefore we're all effectively working class.

Class as far as I'm concerned is nothing to do with materialism or wealth and more to do with moral & social values and behaviours that one holds and exhibits in day to day life.
Money or material wealth doesn't buy class.

 

[John Brown]

How do you determine who is working class and who isn't?
The only people who keep harping on about the working class are the extremist left wingers determined to see division where it doesn't exist. Thankfully most people don't think like that.
With few exceptions of those who don't need to work for a living, most people actually do, therefore we're all effectively working class.

Class as far as I'm concerned is nothing to do with materialism or wealth and more to do with moral & social values and behaviours that one holds and exhibits in day to day life.
Money or material wealth doesn't buy class.

Moral or social values, such as those espoused by capitalists.

 

[Fergie 307]

Forgot to add - two extreme examples of "posh idiots getting into positions of power and influence" both ex Eton and Bullingdon Club, are Cameron and Johnson.
They gave us Brexit.
Cameron also gave us the bonfire of the red tape leading to the bonfire of Grenfell Tower.
Two national tragedies/disasters within a few years of each other.
Public schooling should be a bar to public office!

"Public schooling should be a bar to public office" .
Would that not have ruled out the privately educated Oxford graduate Attlee, who incidentally was a friend and mentor to my late father when he was a young man.
I would agree was a fine prime minister, but undoubtedly a posh boy.
You really do need to get a grip of your rather juvenile prejudice.

 

[AJB Temple]

Time will tell but it sounds more like as I suspected it’s a case of not liking her views rather than her actually being financially illiterate.

That is actually misquoting me. I did not say she was financially illiterate, I said she was "not economically literate" and when asked I explained briefly why I formed that opinion but did not say much about my own views.

It is not worth spending time on it here, but I think broadly that polarised blame politics and fantasy slogans like £22 billion black hole no one knew about, is largely hot air. No good businessman would go about things in this way where we focus on targeting certain groups (currently rich / ordinary pensioners / parents paying for private schools). We need to look at what is likely to regenerate the country such that we can raise more tax, and scaring away the wealthy and employers seems to me to be unwise.

I agree that time will tell. Probably Starner is a decent man at heart, but he is ill-fitted for the job of PM. Politicians are generally deluded anyway about their ability to influence economies and business in a positive way through taxation and workers rights. Big business is globally diversified. The UK is hemming itself in.

 

[woodieallen]

Moral or social values, such as those espoused by capitalists.

I'm glad that you have finally seen the light.

 

[Blackswanwood]

That is actually misquoting me. I did not say she was financially illiterate, I said she was "not economically literate" and when asked I explained briefly why I formed that opinion but did not say much about my own views.

Apologies I replied on the move and didn’t look back before doing so - I did use the wrong word.

Having spent most of my working life listening to economists I still see no evidence she is illiterate on the topic. Economists often have different opinions on how to tackle a problem. Having left leaning or feminist views doesn’t (in my view) make someone illiterate on economics.

I agree with your point on blame game etc. Our political system seems to result in the political parties being unable to acknowledge things they may agree on due to their rush to score political points.

 

[Jacob]

How do you determine who is working class and who isn't?

Working class tends to mean people who work for wages generally so low that they do not accumulate wealth.
It used to mean unskilled or semi skilled but the boundaries become blurred as the nature of work changes. Definitions become loose descriptions, not always useful.
The book to read is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Making_of_the_English_Working_Class
Also "Blood in the Machine" which talks of the consequences of industrialisation/automation from the early days of the industrial revolution through to current topic of Artificial Intelligence, with the associated inevitability of redundancy and unemployment. It's a much easier read than the above! https://www.newscientist.com/articl...he-machine-review-going-back-to-the-luddites/

 

[Jacob]

Better than unpopulist opinion I suppose.

Yes it does need the state to enable the environment for meritocracy. That’s the point many here have been trying to make. So called socialist governments inhibit the progress of meritocracy by focusing on dumbing down to the lowest common denominator or at best mediocrity.
The Labour concept of the working class is a historical anachronism. Unfortunately a large focus is now on the non-working class while the actual working class is what would have been considered middle class in days gone by.

Who decides on the merit in a meritocracy?
Many ordinary workers work harder and for longer hours than most, but for low wages and insecure jobs.
Conversely, bankers traditionally work 3/6/3, meaning borrow at 3%, lend at 6%, be on the golf course at 3PM.
OK it's an entertaining old cliche but the truth still holds. Should they be paid more than refuse collectors, care workers, packers, building workers, all of whom are much more necessary to support civilised life?
Meritocracy is a childish notion and in reality those who use it simply equate merit with wealth.

 

[John Brown]

For all that you throw out tired old clichés, such as "the politics of envy" or "socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money", can you point me to a post where Jacob is whinging about his own situation, or asking for handouts? Like many socialists, I think he simply believes that there should
A) Be a safety net for those less fortunate and
B Be less inequality, which has been burgeoning in the last decade or so.

All talk of meritocracy is fine, except that it doesn't really mean what you think it does, if anything. The "cracy" part means power, while the "merit" part is highly subjective. I've no doubt that most people would agree that those who work hard should be rewarded, but maybe it could be a more linear relationship, rather than the massively exponential one that seems to exist. As I asked a while back, does Jeff Bezoz work 2,000 harder than your average Joe? Somebody responded that the opening was there, and anyone could have started Amazon, but obviously not everyone could, or who'd be the customer base.
I'm not after any of your money, by the way, but I do think the current system is totally skewed in favour of the haves, to the detriment of the have nots.

 

[paulrbarnard]

For all that you throw out tired old clichés, such as "the politics of envy" or "socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money", can you point me to a post where Jacob is whinging about his own situation, or asking for handouts? Like many socialists, I think he simply believes that there should
A) Be a safety net for those less fortunate and
B Be less inequality, which has been burgeoning in the last decade or so.

All talk of meritocracy is fine, except that it doesn't really mean what you think it does, if anything. The "cracy" part means power, while the "merit" part is highly subjective. I've no doubt that most people would agree that those who work hard should be rewarded, but maybe it could be a more linear relationship, rather than the massively exponential one that seems to exist. As I asked a while back, does Jeff Bezoz work 2,000 harder than your average Joe? Somebody responded that the opening was there, and anyone could have started Amazon, but obviously not everyone could, or who'd be the customer base.
I'm not after any of your money, by the way, but I do think the current system is totally skewed in favour of the haves, to the detriment of the have nots.

It’s very easy to use a Belize or Musk as an example of rich but they are in the 0.001% not the 5% that are targeted by tax hikes.