New kitchen project

[RogerS]

orangeth....I quite like the bullnose idea but how do you finish it to match the doors...if the doors are high gloss finish ...in whatever colour from tbe very wide range available?

 

[jasonB]

Also how do you deal with the front edge of the MDF panel under the units if there is no pelmet and how do you fit the type of halogen lights that go between wall and underside of carcase.

Also on the base unit depth debate a lot of wirework and pull out need at least 500mm so this should be taken into account if making your own shallow carcases.

JAson

 

[johnelliott]

I can plaster as well...... :lol: .

OOooh!, aren't you talented!!

I hardly think that sarcasm is called for when we are discussing installation rather than making of a kitchen. As you are no doubt well aware any experienced 2nd fix carpenter, joiner or even kitchen fitter will by the nature of the job be multi-skilled. i.e. be able to tackle small plastering, tiling, plumbing and flooring jobs and so forth. It is all part of the job of installing a kitchen, isn't it? Or do you bring in other trades to do an hours work when you install a kitchen rather than do it yourself?

OK, maybe the sarcasm wasn't justified, although there was somethng about the way you made the original point that suggested that there was something that you could do that I couldn't.
I wouldn't bring in a plasterer to do an hour's work, but I wouldn't bring in a plasterer to straighten a wall anyway, because as I keep pointing out, it isn't necessary, and not possible to do in an hour anyway.

The principle point about using standard depth (570mm) carcasses, which you have unfortunately missed, is that if your carcass isn't 570mm deep then any built-under or built-in items like ovens, fridges, dishwashers, etc. probably won't fit. You omitted to point out that your method only works if you are not installing any appliances - a minor but important derail.



Even knocking just 5mm off the depth of the carcasses can make for problems with some of the dishwashers and ovens out there (fridges seem to be easier for some reason) and then you might additionally find problems getting items like hobs to fit correctly above ovens because of where gas pipes, etc need to go. I suppose that's why many makers/installers prefer to stay with "standard" sizes. It also means going wider is a more viable approach, but if a wall is bowed in or bellied out badly at worktop level I for one would find that visually very intrusive, so I'd fix the wall - even though that's not a woodworking task

Scrit

Amongst the points that you don't seem to be able to grasp is that my advice is based on experience, and has worked well in many kitchens, all of which include appliances. How can this be? Well, if you think about it, you will remember that I said that the cabinets were spaced out 15mm. 15mm plus (in the case I described but one that is easily modified) 565mm is 580mm. Do you start to understand what I am driving at here?

To make what I am saying absolutely clear, and to use my suggested dimensions (open to variation if desired or necessary)-
Start at one end with a 565 deep cabinet with a spacer behind it of 15mm. I use small spacers behind each cabinet side because sometimes I can get a straighter line by having say 15mm one side and 14 or 16 the other.
Then position the next cabinet or two and fix those to the wall temporarily with spacers as required. Perhaps now there will be a gap for an integrated dishwasher. Continue the other side until all the cabinets have been positioned. If the end cabinet shows then you will have made that side deeper and be able to scribe it as required. Use a stringline to check that all the cabinets are in line, then fix to the wall using whatever spacers are required.
I often find that the spacers will vary between 15mm and nothing, I might even have to cut a bit off a cabinet if the wall is very bad, but this way I have 15mm margin before I need to get a saw out

I don't think this argument is going to go anywhere very much, we've each made our points but I will repeat for the benefit of other readers that this technique has been tried and tested over many sucessful installlations, all of which included appliances (mostly Bosch, Siemens and Neff) and the fact that you don't like it doesn't stop it being valid

As long as your riposte doesn't reiterate that the technique doesn't work then I won't reply again

John

 

[Scrit]

Well, if you think about it, you will remember that I said that the cabinets were spaced out 15mm. 15mm plus (in the case I described but one that is easily modified) 565mm is 580mm. Do you start to understand what I am driving at here?

Yes, that you don't see the need to take into account standard worktop depths because you use custom width ones.. But that isn't the case for most kitchens. Let's face it John there's more than one way to skin a cat and each installation is different. The original question was, however, about upper cabinets, so maybe we should get back on topic?.......

Scrit

 

[johnelliott]

Yes, that you don't see the need to take into account standard worktop depths because you use custom width ones

This will be the third time that I have told you that the dimensions can be varied to suit the circumstances. I did a kitchen with a standard worktop about a year ago. I decided to set the back of the cabinet further back (normally I set the 6mm ply back 50mm in from the back edge. IIRC I set them at approx 30mm instead so as to preserve the 500mm minimum depth inside the cabinet, and made the units shallower to suit. The worktop was Axiom at approx 598mm deep

I really can't understand why you are so dertermined to prove me wrong on this issue. I'm not wrong, the technique works.

I'm happy to get back on topic now that I've explained that point to you

Jon

 

[orangetlh]

hi Roger, im thinking more along the line of bespoke kitchens where you can match it all up. I supose if you took a piece to a polisher they might be able to match the colour and finish.

Jason, the MDF sits inside a rebate on the back edge of the bullnose so no edges are seen. Because of the 15mm gap that the soffit has you can put recessed LV spot lights into the MDF and a transformer if you get a slim one, although we tend to try and keep them on top of the units for easy access.

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Ok Guys - thanks everyone for their input - an update on my kitchen.

The design is now complete - i do all my designs on autocad at a 1:1 scale, inluding all cutting lists so i am confident that my units will fit ( i could post some images if anyone is interested).

At this stage i have tested the hinges that i am going to use, i have pre-bought the sink unit and oven, along with 2 lazy-susan systems for 2 corner base units - and dimensioned my cabinets based on these. I will be using 19mm melamine chipboard - which unfortunately i can only source locally as 8*4 sheets - so storage is definitely a problem. The kitchen will be a traditional raised-panel door/drawer construction with face-frames, all done in Red Oak. - i am yet to decide on what materials to use for the drawer boxes - perhaps i will try oak, but maybe not - depends on time really.

I will be ripping out an existing kitchen and doing the install probably in stages because i just don't have the room to store full cabinets. The oak has arrived and is sitting for the last couple of weeks at the house. I have broke the the build into 5 different areas and i will do each to completion and install them when they are finished. Starting with the face frames, then the doors/drawer fronts and finally the cabinets themselves (again the order is so that i will only have the fully build cabinets at the end. I will hang the doors and fit the drawers (but not the drawer fronts in case of movement in the cases prior to the install - the doors will have adjustable hinges) prior to the install. Any show faces of the cabinets will be covered with panels that i will scribe as necessary to fit.

I could not source 6mm material for the backs anywhere - it's just not done here in the midwest area of Ireland - but i think i will be ok with 3mm material as the face frames will keep the cabinets square and i will add some bracing at the backs as well from 19mm material.

I will be using the blum cabinet hangers as discussed earlier in the thread - these worked really well on a test unit that i did for my workshop and i also tested the bluemotion drawer slides in a garage project.

We are still undecided on the countertop - i have a drawing that i will be circulating to local worktop suppliers for granite - but this will probably work out too expensive - i have also toyed with the idea of a wooden worktop - but i'm not sure i trust the stability of wood around moisture - possibly we will go with the laminated chipboard.

I have deliberately left an inch or so of room at the back of every cabinet to ensure i can install them straight regardless of the condition of the walls - i have some concerns on installing the upper units but i have had lots of feedback on this from people on this forum - i will worry about this more when the time comes.

Thanks everyone for helping get me this far - and please continue to be free with advice and tips.

Regards,

Sean

 

[RogerS]

Sean - re choice of worktop...Have you seen this thread?

 

[sean_in_limerick]

thanks - just read it. It has pretty much made my mind up about the wooden worktop, i'm sure some people can make it work but we have 2 children under 2 and don't have time to be fastidious on cleaning immediately after use. I will post a picture of my worktops and perhaps we can debate what the best material might be.

Sean

 

[Scrit]

Hi Sean

I could not source 6mm material for the backs anywhere - it's just not done here in the midwest area of Ireland - but i think I will be ok with 3mm material as the face frames will keep the cabinets square and i will add some bracing at the backs as well from 19mm material.

It's a pity that you can't get thicker stuff. 3mm is awfully thin and will tend to belly-out over time as well as being prone to popping out of its' grooves if given a good clout with a frying pan or the like. Have you thought about going the other way and using 19mm carcass material for the backs? After all you'll have those 8 x 4 sheets.....

....I have also toyed with the idea of a wooden worktop - but I'm not sure I trust the stability of wood around moisture - possibly we will go with the laminated chipboard.

Well I still like solid wood tops, despite my comments elsewhere. But they do require a bit of work

Scrit

 

[engineer one]

sean,
glad you are moving forward,
just one point as i understand it one normally fits the face frame to the
cabinet rather than the other way round, since the reason for the face
frame is to hide imperfections amongst other things.

maybe you should think that through again.
paul :wink:

 

[sean_in_limerick]

just one point as i understand it one normally fits the face frame to the
cabinet rather than the other way round, since the reason for the face
frame is to hide imperfections amongst other things.

Paul -> Probably a misunderstanding here - the face frame will certainly be fixed to the face frame - i will be using pocket screws on all four sides of the cabinet - obviously from the outside so they won't show - which will make the cabinets extremely rigid (won't it?)? What are imperfections...

Scrit-> i can get hold of 15mm stuff no problem - that actually might be the way to go now i think about it - it will save me having to groove the cabinet pieces for the 3mm back. I assume you would inset the back into the cabinet - could be a problem if the cabinet isn't perfectly square (gaps)?

Sean

 

[engineer one]

sean, i appreciate that with your skill there will be few errors,
but the idea is to fit the face frames to the cabinet, not the other way
round, that is why i question your production method.

paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

Scrit-> I can get hold of 15mm stuff no problem - that actually might be the way to go now I think about it - it will save me having to groove the cabinet pieces for the 3mm back. I assume you would inset the back into the cabinet - could be a problem if the cabinet isn't perfectly square (gaps)?

If you rebate the back that will hide any imperfecions - in addition the back can then be used to pull the carcass dead square and its' rigidity will be increased no end.

A couple of extra points to consider - whenever I've taken old cabinets out almost every time there is water damage to the carcasses in the vicinity of the sink, so make sure that you seal any exposed edges- it needn't be pretty as it will never be seen, so a smear of silicone will do the job. Secondly sink cabinets generally have loads of pipework behind them, so in that case think about running a small cross section batter (say 1 x 1in) across the bottom and up the sides and making the back so that it can be inserted and removed from the front of the cab - in two pieces if necessary - you may ony see the logic of that approach in 5 years time when you have to deal with a leak behind the carcass......

Scrit

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Paul-> i am missing your point i think - i now think you are wondering on why i am doing the face frames first? If so, then the reason i do it this way is that i won't have bulky cabinets all over the place - the complete dimensions of the face frames and cabinets is already in the computer and i just print out what i need for each unit - it doesn't matter what order i make them as long as i cut accurately to the drawing, and face frames are easier to store than cabinets. I won't be measuring the face frames and then building cabinets to match!

Scrit-> Good points regarding the sink unit, and you are dead right regarding the water damage to the existing units - they are a mess - i will build in some access panel and seal the edges as you suggest.

Sean

 

[engineer one]

trust me sean, s**t happens, and it is easier and actually more
accurate to do it the other way round, but i guess like us all,
you will only find out after you have done it. :lol:

paul :wink:

 

[sean_in_limerick]

that hurts - i've always done it this way - i built a unit for my workshop recently that had a face frame that spanned a stack of drawers, a double door cabinet and another drawer unit. I built the face frame first, then drawer fronts, doors and end panels and finally the cabinets. Generally with 50mm wide face frames there is a little wiggle room and i wouldn't want to make a single face frame any wider but it fitted together great - although i have to admit to being a little concerned before i put it together... but of course you are right sh*t does happen but none of my face frames are so large that it would bankrupt me to have to rebuild them - and nobody would know but me...

 

[engineer one]

hey mate you have to do it the way that works for you, and
past success is not a guide to the future as the institutions who
supposedly look after your money say.

i did not realise that you had done it that way in the past, :twisted:

i was just pointing out that the method was i understood to
build the frames to fit the cabinets rather than the other way round.

certainly that seems to be the way all the american mags suggest
you do it, but then what do they know??? :
paul :wink:

 

[johnelliott]

Sean, making the face frames first is fine. As you say, they will be made accurately and have already been modelled in Autocad to ensure that they are correct.
In any case if you make the styles and rail wide enouigh you can always tale a little bit off to trim them. When I used to do face frame kitchens I deliberately made the face frames a little bit too wide, fixed them to the carcases and then trimmed them flush. Mind you, I used to make a seperate face frame for each carcase. That made it easier to incorporate an integrated dischwasher

Have you considered birch plywood for the cabinets? It looks good when it's varnished and isn't prone to water damage the way MFC is.

I think you are right to go with conventional laminated worktops, you can always replace them with granite at some point in the future

John

 

[sean_in_limerick]

Thanks John - i did indeed consider birch plywood - but i can't source is easily - and where i can it's more than twice the price of the MFC. How did you trim the face frames once they are attached to the cabinet? - i'm guessing a hand saw?
Sean