New kitchen project

[Scrit]

Sean

There's one other thing I didn't mention - I check for out of square corners using a 4ft fold-away square. This is an expensive item to buy for a one off kitchen, but a 3-4-5 square can be made by simply nailing 3ft, 4ft and 5ft lengths of 2 x 1 PAR together (after halving the ends with a renon saw, that is). If you find that the corner is "hollow", i.e. there is a gap betweenthe square and the wall in the corner by more than an inch it may be nececssary to build-up the plasterwork between the base cabs and the tiop edger upper units ONLY (saves materials and in any case nobody ntyices the corner above the cornices). This does mean building-up the wall before hanging the upper cabs, though. That build-up may be just a skim of one-coat plaster. In extreme cases it may require an extra layer of plasterboard to be nailed to the wall (if it's stud wall) or fixed with dabs of plasterboard adhesive, and then the levels built-up with plaster and a float. If it's the other way round, i.e. a gap on the end away from the corner I reckon it's better to "bend" the unts round to fit the wall and end-up with a slightly greater than 90 degree angle in the corner. I uswe two different methods because I find an angle less than right angles in a "square" jitchen to be potentially visually disturbing whereas obtise corners don't seem to be that obvious.

Scrit

 

[jasonB]

As Scrit says if the corners are slightly out of square then pack the units and keep the faces at 90 deg. If there is a lot of run out then you have two options, pack the wall or set the units to follow the wall.

This kitchen had a 2" gap over my 4ft fold out square which was almost 6" over the 12ft wall! I set the cabs to follow the wall as packing the wall by 6" would have meant the units on the left didn't have enough space to fit in. It does not notice so you are probably worrying over nothing, it just makes the draws on th eless than 90 deg corner come a bit close to the cabinet handles :!:

If you opt for 100mm plinths I would increase the doors to 775mm as if you stick to the smaller size as scrit suggested you will only have 825mm under the worktop which will likely affect what appliances will fit under the W/T

Jason

 

[Barry Burgess]

Just make sure that the counter top covers all the errors with the walls. This is what I did, but my daughter decided 1 year later to change the counter top using a narrower one - pain in the ass - had to fit a ali cover strip to hide the gap. Follow Scrits advice he has fitted loads of cupboards from his comments.
Fitting cupboards you must expect no walls to be square or floors to be level.
Barry
Part time cupboard fitter

 

[johnelliott]

Another good tip, and a technique I use all the time, is to space the base units out from the wall by 15mm. My standard measurements are base cab depth 565mm (alows for 500mm drawer plus a 6mm back plus a 50mm recess for pipes), then the 15mm space plus say 20mm for the doors means a 620mm (or thereabouts) worktop will be needed. If a cabinet side shows then make that side 580 (or better still 590 then you can scribe it for the inevitable sloping wall).

Anyway, the idea behind spacing the cabinets out 15mm is in case the wall curves inward along its length. If it does, then you just leave out the spacers behind the middle cabinets, and the fronts will still be in a straight line. (unless the wall curves in by more than 15mm!

John

 

[engineer one]

that's a good idea john, the other thing to do is make a your own worktop
out of pine for instance thenyou can make it the width you want haha.

but seriously a mate of mine put a thicker wooden upstand in place first,
then scribed the worktop to fit. of course this does not work for the
top cabinets.

paul :wink:

 

[johnelliott]

that's a good idea john, the other thing to do is make a your own worktop
out of pine for instance thenyou can make it the width you want haha.

but seriously a mate of mine put a thicker wooden upstand in place first,
then scribed the worktop to fit. of course this does not work for the
top cabinets.

paul :wink:

You appear to be making a joke but I don't get it, perhaps you would explain. Does the winking emoticon indicate that your joke isn't meant to be taken seriously? What exactly is the point you are trying to make?

BTW, 616mm worktops are available from Howdens and MFI, althugh my kitchens are usually fitted with granite worktops.

John

 

[engineer one]

john, i'm old enough to remember when we did not use square boxes
to fit kitchens. not quite as old as percy blandford, but :lol:

the reason people moved to using the so called euro box was simplicity,
cost saving, and ease of fitting. but one area where it is not easy to fit
it that most european homes seem to be squarer than ours, so when they first came out people used old fashoined means to get a square look.

the simplest is a wall plate at the back, this can either be higher than the
worktop, to make an upstand, or in line with the worktop, then you carve into the wall plate rather than the worktop or the wall.

obviously this makes more sense when you tile at the back because you
can cover it, but i have seen a number of handmade pine kitchens which
have used well plates to align the cabinets and then either made their
own or modified worktops.

anyway this is kind of off post since sean asked about aligning top
cabinets, and making a thicker wall plate at the top to hang off would
also be a solution.

in all cases, with out of square walls etc, the need is to convince the
eyes that the cabinets are not as out of square as they could be.

in these cases the use of square lines i.e. tiles on a counter top is not
a good thing because it draws you eye into a contrary view.

sorry john if i have not clarified to your desire what i said, but it was not
a joke.

having in the past fitted both kitchens and granite worktops and
b****y great fireplaces when they were pretty rare, i do understand
about scribing big heavy lumps of wood and stone into unsquare
walls, and find that a wall plate makes life easier, and gives you less
to do on the wall, whilst reducing the risk of screwing up the worktop.

paul :wink:

ps if you check other posts of mine, you will see the emoticon on them all.
at a certain age, it is amazing that you find every day that you know so
much but so little, and you can learn something new every day even from
someone who does not do what you do , but looks at things in a different
way.

 

[johnelliott]

Seems to me that my solution is a lot more simple and straight forward than yours, so I will continue to use it and recomend it to others.

As for checking your other posts, I'm afraid I'm a bit too busy for that at the moment

John

 

[engineer one]

john, no problem, but part of the value of this forum is that you
can pick up something useful if you are open to it.

but i do agree about leaving a larger space behind the cabinets
to access the plumbing etc.
paul :wink:

 

[Scrit]

A technique I use all the time, is to space the base units out from the wall by 15mm. My standard measurements are base cab depth 565mm (alows for 500mm drawer plus a 6mm back plus a 50mm recess for pipes), then the 15mm space plus say 20mm for the doors means a 620mm (or thereabouts) worktop will be needed. If a cabinet side shows then make that side 580 (or better still 590 then you can scribe it for the inevitable sloping wall).

Anyway, the idea behind spacing the cabinets out 15mm is in case the wall curves inward along its length. If it does, then you just leave out the spacers behind the middle cabinets, and the fronts will still be in a straight line. (unless the wall curves in by more than 15mm!

John

The main problem with that, John, is that laminate tops are either 600 or 605mm. Ideally you want 5 to 10mm overhang at the front, so that would leave you with a carcass depth of 600mm less: 15mm gap, 5mm front overhang, 20mm door+reveal thickness (or face frame w/inset door) 560mm. The "standard" is 570mm and then scribe the back..... I feel it's easier to correct the wall in many cases. Solid timber or granite tops are less of a problem, but even there a standard solid wood top is 600 to 610mm in my experience.

BTW, 616mm worktops are available from Howdens and MFI, although my kitchens are usually fitted with granite worktops.

Yes, but that's one supplier - and one with a reputation for supplying banana-shaped worktops.......

The point about upstands/tiles is also very valid - they give yo an extra 6 to 20mm to play with and so can be extremely useful so long as you can hide any gaps at the exposed ends.

Scrit

 

[Scrit]

I just had a look at my swatches and 600 to 605mm is the standard for the market leaders - Duropal, Prima, Axiom and Resopal Duropal are about the best IMHO). To go wider I just get a narrow breakfast bar top and slice one edge off. Reseal afterwards. The only problem is tjhat appliances, etc are designed to fit into nominally 600mm deep units and worktops wider than about 650mm start to look decidedly odd, as well as robbing precious space

Scrit

 

[johnelliott]

john, no problem, but part of the value of this forum is that you
can pick up something useful if you are open to it.

And that value is spoiled if one member tries to instruct another, or takes the mickey.

 

[engineer one]

doh :-k

paul :wink:

 

[johnelliott]

A technique I use all the time, is to space the base units out from the wall by 15mm. My standard measurements are base cab depth 565mm (alows for 500mm drawer plus a 6mm back plus a 50mm recess for pipes), then the 15mm space plus say 20mm for the doors means a 620mm (or thereabouts) worktop will be needed. If a cabinet side shows then make that side 580 (or better still 590 then you can scribe it for the inevitable sloping wall).

Anyway, the idea behind spacing the cabinets out 15mm is in case the wall curves inward along its length. If it does, then you just leave out the spacers behind the middle cabinets, and the fronts will still be in a straight line. (unless the wall curves in by more than 15mm!

John

The main problem with that, John, is that laminate tops are either 600 or 605mm. Ideally you want 5 to 10mm overhang at the front, so that would leave you with a carcass depth of 600mm less: 15mm gap, 5mm front overhang, 20mm door+reveal thickness (or face frame w/inset door) 560mm. The "standard" is 570mm and then scribe the back..... I feel it's easier to correct the wall in many cases. Solid timber or granite tops are less of a problem, but even there a standard solid wood top is 600 to 610mm in my experience.

BTW, 616mm worktops are available from Howdens and MFI, although my kitchens are usually fitted with granite worktops.

Yes, but that's one supplier - and one with a reputation for supplying banana-shaped worktops.......

The point about upstands/tiles is also very valid - they give yo an extra 6 to 20mm to play with and so can be extremely useful so long as you can hide any gaps at the exposed ends.

Scrit

Well, I gave all the measurements, so if someone is unable or unwilling to obtain a suitable worktop depth then all they need to do is to adjust one the measurements. The easiest one would be the cabinet depth, and do that by reducing the drawer depth to 450mm, which in any case is what you will find in most if not all ready made units. I would still recommend the spacing out technique as being the easiest way to cope with a wall that is curving inwards.

In my experience (perhaps I've been spoiled) then granite at 620mm or more is no problem at all because it is being cut from a slab specifically to fit the kitchen. The wooden worktops I've used (as little as possible) are approx 650mm deep. But as I said above, if these aren't available then obviously something else has to be adjusted to suit.

I was amused by your comment about it being easier to correct the wall than (presumably) to use my spacing out technique. The walls I deal with are not so amenable that straightening them is easier than using or leaving out a few spacers.

John

 

[orangetlh]

just a quick note on your wall unit hanging. If you are using the end panels then what we do is cut two battens, one at say 50x25 and one at 50x15. The 50x25 is screwed to the wall just above the cabinet height line with the 50mm protuding from the wall. then screw the 15mm batten below the cabinet, again with 50 mm protuding. Then place the cabinet between the two battens and screw up and down into the carcase. That way you have plenty of room to square the carcase. To cover the 15mm batten we machine a 25mm thick bullnose with a 20x9mm deep rebate in the back bottom edge, mitre it round to form a pelmet, then scribe a piece of 9mm veneered MDF under the unit and fix it inside the rebate and to the 15mm batten. Heres a pic

http://server2.uploadit.org/files/orangetlh-scan.jpg

 

[Scrit]

My personal feeling is that gets in the way ogf the tiler..... My current kitchen was done that way and I hate it. One day...

Scrit

 

[Scrit]

John

The fact is that the tw o largest QUALITY players, Duropal (Pfleiderer) and Axiom (Formica) sipplu 600mm as a norm, as do Resopal, Bushboard, etc. Yes - I think you've been spoiled, but then I can plaster as well...... :lol: .

Scrit

 

[johnelliott]

I can plaster as well...... :lol: .

Scrit

OOooh!, aren't you talented!!

If this was a plasterer's forum then I can well imagne that the technique of straightening a wall by applying plaster would go down very well. Especially if you were charging for it. As I understand it the original poster was discussing his own kitchen, and using a few pieces of 15mm plywood as required to get a firm fixing to a curving wall whilst leaving a dead straight front is obviously a better solution even if it is one that you hadn't thought of.

Anyway, I've already disposed of your (standard worktop dimensions)objection to my spacing out idea by explaining how the cabinet dimensons can be varied to suit whatever worktop solution the person concerned wishes to use.

John

 

[orangetlh]

My personal feeling is that gets in the way ogf the tiler

I disagree, if the bullnose and soffit is finished tight to the wall it gives the tiler a nice straight edge to tile upto. At the end of the day you have to think what looks better, a wall carcase with gaps all around it and a MFC base showing or a bullnose and soffit that closes all the gaps up and is finshed the same colour/timber as your kitchen doors etc. If the tiler wants to tile beyind the soffit then they can tile it first and you can cut the soffit to butt upto it.

 

[Scrit]

I can plaster as well...... :lol: .

OOooh!, aren't you talented!!

I hardly think that sarcasm is called for when we are discussing installation rather than making of a kitchen. As you are no doubt well aware any experienced 2nd fix carpenter, joiner or even kitchen fitter will by the nature of the job be multi-skilled. i.e. be able to tackle small plastering, tiling, plumbing and flooring jobs and so forth. It is all part of the job of installing a kitchen, isn't it? Or do you bring in other trades to do an hours work when you install a kitchen rather than do it yourself?

The principle point about using standard depth (570mm) carcasses, which you have unfortunately missed, is that if your carcass isn't 570mm deep then any built-under or built-in items like ovens, fridges, dishwashers, etc. probably won't fit. You omitted to point out that your method only works if you are not installing any appliances - a minor but important derail.

Even knocking just 5mm off the depth of the carcasses can make for problems with some of the dishwashers and ovens out there (fridges seem to be easier for some reason) and then you might additionally find problems getting items like hobs to fit correctly above ovens because of where gas pipes, etc need to go. I suppose that's why many makers/installers prefer to stay with "standard" sizes. It also means going wider is a more viable approach, but if a wall is bowed in or bellied out badly at worktop level I for one would find that visually very intrusive, so I'd fix the wall - even though that's not a woodworking task

Scrit