Myths & Mysteries

[Corneel]

Gaudy, that's the word I think. Just not my cup of thea.

This piece comes from a large batch of "esdoorn" (Dutch) or "ahorn" (German). European Maple.

 

[Modernist]

Gaudy, that's the word I think. Just not my cup of thea.

This piece comes from a large batch of "esdoorn" (Dutch) or "ahorn" (German). European Maple.

What piece

 

[Corneel]

Oh, I mean the picture in my post of last night.

 

[Corneel]

Well I nursed my hangover and now I was able to sharpen the blade. That did make the planing a bit easier, but didn't do much for how the wood looks. It's still a gaudy, blotchy piece of maple. And I still can't capture the smoothness and the glow of the wood on camera. Hearby I officially withdraw my statement that old Bailey can make a nicer surface than new bevel ups. I think they're both fine planes. I'm going to play this weekend with a 15 degree backbevel just to see what difference a high cutting angle makes.

 

[János]

Hello,

Silky smooth surfaces from a hand plane... But "plane fresh" will need some kind of finish, to prevent the raising of grain in everyday use, from perspiration, rain, water spills etc. There are very few occasions, where a "plane fresh" surface would be appropriate or suitable...

Sanding is able to produce a glass like, silky smooth finish, better than that so called "plane fresh". Even Japanese cabinetmakers used/use fine sanding: the traditional way of fine sanding and polishing of wood was to rub it with the leaves of muku tree.

Have a nice day,

János

 

[No skills]

Couple of random thoughts from me.

I have found that I do like the 'from the plane finish' perhaps more than finely sanded wood finish, obviously every finish has its place but the more playing around I do with hand tools (planes) the more I appreciate a fresh planed surface. Anybody else find this? or am I just some sort of planed wood pervert?

Paul Sellers said on his blog that he prefers bevel edged chisels for cutting mortices over heavier firmers etc any thoughts on that from the collective?

I've spent a little bit of time looking at Seller's blog and videos the last few days, I do kind of like the fairly no non-sense (if thats the right word?) approach he has.

FWIW

 

[Jacob]

....
Paul Sellers said on his blog that he prefers bevel edged chisels for cutting mortices over heavier firmers etc any thoughts on that from the collective?

I....

I think nobody is impressed at all!
But have a go - make your own mind up. He's gone into a lot of detail,perhaps he has been listening to the mutterings over here.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Couple of random thoughts from me.

I have found that I do like the 'from the plane finish' perhaps more than finely sanded wood finish, obviously every finish has its place but the more playing around I do with hand tools (planes) the more I appreciate a fresh planed surface. Anybody else find this? or am I just some sort of planed wood pervert?

Paul Sellers said on his blog that he prefers bevel edged chisels for cutting mortices over heavier firmers etc any thoughts on that from the collective?

I've spent a little bit of time looking at Seller's blog and videos the last few days, I do kind of like the fairly no non-sense (if thats the right word?) approach he has.

FWIW

I've heard it said that different woods respond better to different surfacing methods. Some plane to glossy, silky finish; others need a bit of attention with a scraper or fine sandpaper. I suppose the old maxim of trying things out on offcuts holds good here.

As to Mr Sellers' morticing technique - well, if it works for him, he's perfectly entitled to use bevel-edged chisels, provided he uses his own bevel-edged chisels and not mine. Personally, I'd prefer to cut a mortice with a mortice chisel - after all, the clue is in the name. In the event of not having a mortice chisel the required size, I think I'd drill out most of the waste and pare the rest with a bench chisel, registered firmer if I had one. That's what I used to do in my less well-equipped days, and it seemed to work OK. Use a drill smaller than the mortice, though - it's surprisingly easy for the grain to pull a drill slightly out of line at the start, especially if you use a bog-standard jobber's drill, and end up with crescents outside the mortice sidewall lines.

 

[DTR]

I think nobody is impressed at all!
But have a go - make your own mind up.

I use PS's method, except I use the bench top instead of a vice. Recently I had to cut some 1" wide, 3" deep mortises (admittedly in softwood). With the lack of a better alternative I used a bevel edged chisel with no problems. I'm sure we discussed this recently in another thread?

 

[GazPal]

Let's try to remember the technique he advocates is primarily for the benefit of newcomers with limited tools and facilities, as virtually everyone has at least one or two bevel edged chisels when they're first starting out. I think his example using bevel edged chisels is genuinely an excellent example of how a newby can approach mortising and - in all honesty - bevelled chisels do work well when sharpened and used in the manner he prescribes....... Regardless of skill level. :wink: Some opt to use firmer chisels for mortising, but - depending on the timber in use - they can have a tendancy to jamb and potentially skew in the cut if struck to deep, which can/could prove a major headache if a quantity of mortise need to be chopped.

I tend to opt for mortising on the bench top instead of in the vise, but - again - this boils down to personal preference, as I find some mortise are best chopped within the confines of a vise - think narrow stock and potential problems with sides blowing out - and not necessarily whether it's the right or wrong way to do something.

Again, it boils down to personal technique and preferences. :wink:

 

[woodbrains]

In the event of not having a mortice chisel the required size, I think I'd drill out most of the waste and pare the rest with a bench chisel, registered firmer if I had one. That's what I used to do in my less well-equipped days, and it seemed to work OK. Use a drill smaller than the mortice, though - it's surprisingly easy for the grain to pull a drill slightly out of line at the start, especially if you use a bog-standard jobber's drill, and end up with crescents outside the mortice sidewall lines.

Careful! I said exactly the same and got called amateurish!

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,


Sanding is able to produce a glass like, silky smooth finish, better than that so called "plane fresh".

Have a nice day,

János

Can't think of another cabinetmaker who would agree that a sandpapered finish is superior to one straight from the plane, or as quick, either. If your planes are truly sharp, the finish from these is truly peerless. Cannot see how the burnished surface left form a plane is any more vulnerable than the micro sratched surface from sandpaper either. James Krenov, for one would be turning in his grave!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,


Sanding is able to produce a glass like, silky smooth finish, better than that so called "plane fresh".

Have a nice day,

János

Can't think of another cabinetmaker who would agree that a sandpapered finish is superior to one straight from the plane, or as quick, either. If your planes are truly sharp, the finish from these is truly peerless. Cannot see how the burnished surface left form a plane is any more vulnerable than the micro sratched surface from sandpaper either. James Krenov, for one would be turning in his grave!

Mike.

It's no mystery. The smaller the abrasive the nearer you approach a glass like finish. Otherwise polished plate glass would be impossible, along with millions of other polished products.
Personally I like seeing plane marks on finished work (within reason) and often stuff is over finished IMHO. But if you really want to go smoother then abrasives/scrapers are the way.

 

[Modernist]

Personally I like seeing plane marks on finished work (within reason) and often stuff is over finished IMHO. But if you really want to go smoother then abrasives/scrapers are the way.

Careful Jacob - you are close to agreeing with St Jim leaving signs of the "hand of the artisan"

Personally I just plane it flat and don't bother with abrasives unless I have something to hide. I much prefer the burnished finish from a well set plane. It certainly feels better.

 

[János]

Hello,

I too like, even love the tactile feel of freshly planed woods. But, from a purely practical point of view, this "left as planed" surface is quite inadequate for most purposes. As I have mentioned it earlier, a wooden surface left in a plane fresh state is very sensitive to moisture and grain raising caused by it: even a freshly washed hand would ruin the "perfect surface". This kind of finish is not "world proof", so to speak. If and when the Japanese leave the surface "as planed" they take into consideration and accept the effects of moisture and wear: the constant washing and mopping, and the million steps of tabi wearing feet discolour, distort and wear down the initially "perfect surface", into those brownish, silvery grey surfaces with pronounced and raised grain patterns.
But in our Occidental cultures, tastes and habits, anything patinated to that state would be considered "rustic", and an object in the earlier phases of ageing, with discoloured fingerprints, grain raised in patches, or blotches of wine and coffee would cause disgust in most of the spectators, and found its destiny in the trash.
So, from a purely practical professional viewpoint, a plane fresh finish is amateurish and inadequate for almost all applications.

Yes, I leave the insides of drawers and blanket chests unfinished, either "as planed", but a tabletop needs sanding and grain raising with hot water, and some more sanding, just to prevent bad grain rising in case of a future water spill. :wink:

Who the hell is James Krenov? "If you meet the Buddha, kill him."

Have a nice day,

János

 

[woodbloke]

Hello,

I too like, even love the tactile feel of freshly planed woods. But, from a purely practical point of view, this "left as planed" surface is quite inadequate for most purposes. As I have mentioned it earlier, a wooden surface left in a plane fresh state is very sensitive to moisture and grain raising caused by it: even a freshly washed hand would ruin the "perfect surface". This kind of finish is not "world proof", so to speak. If and when the Japanese leave the surface "as planed" they take into consideration and accept the effects of moisture and wear: the constant washing and mopping, and the million steps of tabi wearing feet discolour, distort and wear down the initially "perfect surface", into those brownish, silvery grey surfaces with pronounced and raised grain patterns.
But in our Occidental cultures, tastes and habits, anything patinated to that state would be considered "rustic", and an object in the earlier phases of ageing, with discoloured fingerprints, grain raised in patches, or blotches of wine and coffee would cause disgust in most of the spectators, and found its destiny in the trash.
So, from a purely practical professional viewpoint, a plane fresh finish is amateurish and inadequate for almost all applications.

Yes, I leave the insides of drawers and blanket chests unfinished, either "as planed", but a tabletop needs sanding and grain raising with hot water, and some more sanding, just to prevent bad grain rising in case of a future water spill. :wink:

Who the hell is James Krenov? "If you meet the Buddha, kill him."

Have a nice day,

János

An interesting post with some merit to it...even JK admits to the use of abrasive paper on occasions - Rob

 

[Modernist]

Hello,

Who the hell is James Krenov? "If you meet the Buddha, kill him."

Have a nice day,

János

Too late I fear :x

 

[Corneel]

In finishing I am just a very humble beginner. I tend to oil and wax almost everything. Sometimes a varnish or poly.

Raising grain, isn't that only neccessary after sanding? A planed surface having no loose fibers to raise? That's the impression I got. When oiling wood, raising grain isn't much of a concern anyway.

Today I did the test with a backbevel. I have a nice old infill plane. Nothing special, but I have it lovingly restored. It's almost 50 degrees. I added a backbevel so I got a total cutting angle of 60 degrees. I must say, in the same plank, next to the Bailey surface I didn't really see much difference. I tried wallnut and maple. The difference in surface quality between planing against or with the grain is much bigger, the former being more dull.

There was a huge difference in the ease of planing. The infill at 60 degrees was much harder to push at a similar shaving thickness. I am still awstruck how much the Bailey plane is improved by setting the capiron in the right spot. Apart from not leaving any tearout and making a nice surface, it also feels more solid and glides easier through the wood.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

From time to time I hear of woodworkers that claim to polish their work straight off the plane. I've been hearing it since 1972 when I started in the furniture game. The problem I have with these claims is that I've only ever actually witnessed it in two situations:

1. As a small test sample just to demonstrate it can be done. I've seen this twice, one even done by myself, and boy, what a tedious time consuming waste of effort it was-- no chance of making a profit working that way.
2. In rusticated furniture where the surface is deliberately hand planed, with various planes to leave a scalloped, undulating and torn out surface. This type of furniture, apart from deliberately being roughed up with planes, usually gets some additional treatment with lumps of concrete, chains, drills, dirt, etc and slathered over with brown dye plus some sort of polish, and the end product sold as a distressed country style.

Apart from those examples, I've never seen a piece of polished furniture made with the intention of making a profit that hasn't seen either a scraper or abrasive paper (or both) at some stage of the prepping process prior to applying the finish. Slainte.

 

[Corneel]

Like I said, my finish schedules are not very involved. But when you plane your surfaces anyway, why would it be so time consuming? I think sanding is time consuming.

Not sure how many professionals still handplane their work though.