Guns,guns, and more Guns

[clogs]

T_N,
The French are too busy eating cheese and getting cheesed....hahaha...

happy New year to all.....

 

[Blackswanwood]

The point of the 2nd Amendment is to limit the power of government. Actually all the original amendments did just that. The idea of every household having a mini nuke is the logical conclusion taken to its absurd extreme, but think about SWAT teams conducting no - knock entries to serve warrants for non payment of parking tickets, which has actually happened: if every house was fortified to repel violent government overreaching and abusing its powers, things might be different. Until then we get babies killed by flash - bangs thrown into cots and similar craziness.

The USA runs its legal system as a for - profit, massive employment and wealth extraction system - they lock up even more people than the evil chinese do, for example. Is that that a sign that government needs limiting? Or just that all Americans are mad, violent lunatics who need locking up all the time? I could accept either argument, because American culture seems to work on the basis that you fix your problems by killing people (see virtually any Hollywood film for details, and explains why Die Hard is considered a Christmas movie).

https://www.statista.com/statistics/262961/countries-with-the-most-prisoners/
Is it possible that the American culture has been created by the revolutionary fervour so deeply ingrained in the culture? If so, why don't the French shoot each other all the time? Unanswerable questions that are fun to mull over. Did WWI and then WWII cull europe of its violent genetics? It's an idea I have seen put forward a few times over the years, but somewhat off topic for this thread.

I wonder if we were able to ask those who wrote the US constitution and subsequent amendments whether they would feel it’s turned out as they intended …

 

[RobinBHM]

The USA runs its legal system as a for - profit, massive employment and wealth extraction system - they lock up even more people than the evil chinese do, for example. Is that that a sign that government needs limiting? Or just that all Americans are mad, violent lunatics who need locking up all the time

America is a libertarian, free market capitalist society.

When free markets are free, society works to benefit the rich.
That creates huge social inequality….and crime is always linked to poverty……but wealthy republicans push the agenda that harsher prison sentences equals less crime.


America the land of the free that incarcerates 1% of its population…..a bit ironic really.

 

[RobinBHM]

The point of the 2nd Amendment is to limit the power of government

let’s be honest, that’s a crock of poo, isn’t it?

Thats just dog whistle politics for gun totin red necks to shout and scream whilst they down their Jack Daniels.

 

[John Brown]

let’s be honest, that’s a crock of poo, isn’t it?

Thats just dog whistle politics for gun totin red necks to shout and scream whilst they down their Jack Daniels.

Surely it was the original intention?

 

[Terry - Somerset]

That an answer to the wisdom of perpetuating the 2nd amendment can be determined through rational debate about politics, personal freedoms, weapons capability, technological progress, international comparators of crime and deaths etc is fatuous.

It is a principle established 230 years ago. A world of muskets, monarchy, slavery and empire. Before any more than the faint stirrings of the industrial revolution, organised police forces, US civil war, or even the right for most to vote.

Circumstances that made the 2nd A an important part of the constitution no longer exist.

A remaining argument may be moral - a capacity for self defence and to rise against an over-reaching State. But as the State holds all the trump cards (equipment, trained and disciplined military etc) it seems unlikely a coherent, effective response could be implemented.

The paradox.

• In 1791 the State relied upon the support of the people for its very existence following independence.
• In 2022 the people rely upon the State for their very existence in (a) securing a framework for the necessities of life (food, law and order, clean air etc), and (b) protection from terrorism, external military threats, and internal abuses Facebook, Twitter, Internet etc

 

[D_W]

I think you guys oversimplify what the populace and the military would do in the event of a government and populace scuffle. Most of the military would probably abandon their positions.

As to people in other countries determining what's relevant in U.S. law vs not, I think you're probably not in the right branch of government in the right country to determine that. The courts here interpret the law that's here and the legislature can overturn the amendment if there's a need.

 

[D_W]

I mean, unless you want us to start telling you how dumb we think it is that you pay any attention to the queen and fund a make believe monarchy lifestyle.

 

[artie]

That an answer to the wisdom of perpetuating the 2nd amendment can be determined through rational debate about politics, personal freedoms, weapons capability, technological progress, international comparators of crime and deaths etc is fatuous.

fatuous
[ˈfatjʊəs]

ADJECTIVE

1. silly and pointless.

It is a principle established 230 years ago. A world of muskets, monarchy, slavery and empire.

Nothing changed then except the effectiveness of the muskets.

Circumstances that made the 2nd A an important part of the constitution no longer exist.

What were they and where have they gone?

A remaining argument may be moral - a capacity for self defence and to rise against an over-reaching State. But as the State holds all the trump cards (equipment, trained and disciplined military etc) it seems unlikely a coherent, effective response could be implemented.

This state that you speak of is but a fiction.
Remove the citizens, where is the state.

The paradox.

• In 1791 the State relied upon the support of the people for its very existence following independence.
• In 2022 the people rely upon the State for their very existence in (a) securing a framework for the necessities of life (food, law and order, clean air etc), and (b) protection from terrorism, external military threats, and internal abuses Facebook, Twitter, Internet etc

You make a very good point but taking it a bit further there must be many more very competent people around who are able to not only provide for their own families but provide for those not able or willing to provide for themselves.

 

[selectortone]

I mean, unless you want us to start telling you how dumb we think it is that you pay any attention to the queen and fund a make believe monarchy lifestyle.

No need to tell many of us how dumb that is.

 

[artie]

I mean, unless you want us to start telling you how dumb we think it is that you pay any attention to the queen and fund a make believe monarchy lifestyle.

O, it's not a make believe believe monarchy, and although she/it is partially funded by "us" it's just a drop in the ocean to her other streams of income from all around the planet, even the land of the free and the home of the brave.

 

[John Brown]

I'm not a supporter of the monarchy, but the last time I checked, they weren't implicated in any school massacres.

 

[D_W]

I'm not a supporter of the monarchy, but the last time I checked, they weren't implicated in any school massacres.

It's kind of low wit to draw equivalences to two things that have nothing to do with each other. But it's also expected.

Maybe you missed the point. I don't really care if you guys support the queen - it seems goofy to me. I don't have any ideas regarding how you should stop giving the queen public money because it's not an issue for someone living in the US.

 

[gregmcateer]

I'm not a supporter of the monarchy, but the last time I checked, they weren't implicated in any school massacres.

True, but there is some suspicion that a certain member of the family may have recruited his girlfriends from around the school gates. Allegedly

 

[D_W]

No need to tell many of us how dumb that is.

Well, regardless of what it is, if the majority of the UK likes the whole queen thing, I think it's your business and not mine. The only time it's ever cramped my lifestyle was a girlfriend two decades ago who wanted to sit and watch royal family related stuff all the time - sort of like a soap opera to people in the US - not because it's a soap opera there, but because to us (given that the royal family has no relevance in the US), it might as well be.

There have been times that the US media has depicted Britain as the land of tabloids and people sitting and watching the queen and all of the royal family bits all day. I doubt that there isn't a little more than that going on there.

 

[D_W]

America is a libertarian, free market capitalist society.

When free markets are free, society works to benefit the rich.
That creates huge social inequality….and crime is always linked to poverty……but wealthy republicans push the agenda that harsher prison sentences equals less crime.

America the land of the free that incarcerates 1% of its population…..a bit ironic really.

I think statistically, close to half of the crime comes from two things:
* households with broken families
* households with controlling mothers or terrible drunken abusive fathers

What's apparently out of bounds now is providing a message of how honorable it is to be a good father despite the payback not being monetary. It's viewed now as being bigoted and the only group I can think of who has pushed a public campaign of making note of fatherhood is a one-off not-for-profit that's funded by various churches.

When they place signs near me, they get defaced instantly.

Serial killers often come from one of the two bits above, though there are some who are just genuine defects from birth.

 

[selectortone]

Well, regardless of what it is, if the majority of the UK likes the whole queen thing, I think it's your business and not mine. The only time it's ever cramped my lifestyle was a girlfriend two decades ago who wanted to sit and watch royal family related stuff all the time - sort of like a soap opera to people in the US - not because it's a soap opera there, but because to us (given that the royal family has no relevance in the US), it might as well be.

There have been times that the US media has depicted Britain as the land of tabloids and people sitting and watching the queen and all of the royal family bits all day. I doubt that there isn't a little more than that going on there.

The Royal Family have many fans outside the UK. It's one of the reasons trotted out whenever there is any criticism - it promotes tourism. Personally, their attitude to tne monarchy is one of the few things which I agree with the French on.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think you guys oversimplify what the populace and the military would do in the event of a government and populace scuffle. Most of the military would probably abandon their positions

Surely it has to be crazy to imagine that the American public needs guns just in case the government has to be overthrown.

America is not some tin pot banana republic….even though Trump pushed it that direction.

If the people really think democracy is that fragile, they should get on and change the political system.

 

[RobinBHM]

The Royal Family have many fans outside the UK. It's one of the reasons trotted out whenever there is any criticism - it promotes tourism. Personally, their attitude to tne monarchy is one of the few things which I agree with the French on.

Personally I prefer the monarchy, anachronistic though it is, to a presidential system. I see no point in having a prime minister if a president takes all the power. Although the Royal family do perpetuate privilege in the UK, which is holding us back.

 

[Spectric]

you pay any attention to the queen and fund a make believe monarchy lifestyle.

Yes we do tend to hang onto surplus history, the monachy is a relic from the days of when we enjoyed war with France and Spain and needed some figure head to fight for, a bit like the church of England helped justify the crusades convincing the people it was gods will.