Exploding Pagers - Lebanon

[Jacob]

So the answer for a peaceful solution is to reinstate the Turkish Empire?

Bring back their slavery too.

Don't be silly!

 

[Scruples]

THE partition of Palestine was suggested by UNSCOP in August 1947 and was finally achieved by the UN General Assembly in November 1947. The UK had little or no involvement in the partition process beyond the Balfour declaration in 1917 and the mandate system in 1922 (that was ratified by the League of Nations). The continual assertion that all the problems in the Middle East were initially started by the UK is incorrect. The UK had a lot of input but the partition was achieved by agreement with many nations.

You're right. I was thinking of the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

 

[Scruples]

No I don’t share your anti-Semitic views.

There is nothing written, thus far in this thread, that is anti-Semitic, but it is a claim made by those who want to shut down any criticism of Israel. I criticise the Israeli leadership for their indiscriminate killing of people and I criticise Hamas for the same thing but, in this latest conflict, I see Israel using the opportunity to wipe out, not only Hamas, but the people. Is history is repeating itself where the old victim is now the oppressor?
The illegal settlements continue...

 

[Glitch]

The Balfour Declaration is very vague and I guess the Zionists believe it gives them permission to occupy all of Palestine.

 

[Jacob]

The Balfour Declaration is very vague and I guess the Zionists believe it gives them permission to occupy all of Palestine.

Of course it did not. It's perfectly clear in the quoted paragraph in the letter.
Whether it was ever a realistic prospect is another matter. So far it has certainly been a disaster.
The blame, as with most things, is with those who have or had the power over the process at various points; the UK, UN, now the USA and the Israelis themselves.
Palestinians themselves largely the victims.

View attachment 188468

 

[mudman]

Those who are well-researched do not have to claim it. Please observe the left-hand peak in the Dunning-Kruger Function . . . .

There are no peaks on the data plotted by Dunning and Kruger. If you read their paper, Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments, you will find only four points plotted, and it doesn't represent any of the curves that I think you think represent the effect (it's also not a function) that you are thinking of.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The Balfour Declaration is very vague and I guess the Zionists believe it gives them permission to occupy all of Palestine.

View attachment 188468

From another time and place:

• the UK in colonial power empire building mode may have thought it then had the power to commit to a national home for Jewish people - it certainly would not today
• it makes clear that nothing shall be done which would prejudice the civil and religious rights of others - absolutely right
• it was anyway utterly superseded by the UN resolution post war creating the State of Israel

An interesting piece of history, trying to do the right thing.

Using historical "evidence" as the basis for agreement between Palestine and Israel is futile - both s being entirely selective as to what constitutes evidence. Whilst the two sides may agree that bacon is off the menu, they would have problems in finding consensus on which way is "up".

Solutions will come through finding common goals for the future, not waving bits of paper from times gone by.

 

[spanner48]

Geez, all the pussy cat footing around discussing a UK government defined terrorist group. What is all the ‘without taking sides’? To me it’s like saying your not taking sides discussing a convicted child molester, or the Nazis, there is only one morale stand point.

"a UK government defined terrorist group" That would be the present Israeli government ?

 

[spanner48]

There are no peaks on the data plotted by Dunning and Kruger. If you read their paper, Unskilled and unaware of it: how difficulties in recognizing one's own incompetence lead to inflated self-assessments, you will find only four points plotted, and it doesn't represent any of the curves that I think you think represent the effect (it's also not a function) that you are thinking of.

The curve function maps through the four points. Read the article carefully. Consider whether you are not yourself on the left-hand peak.

 

[deema]

Hamas and Palestine does and has used children as weapons of war. There have been documented circumstances of babies being dressed in secure vests. For me, that puts into perspective children being shot. The perspective that children are all inoccent bystanders is simply not true. Unfortunately Hanas do not dress their terrorists in a uniform to allow them to be identified, anyone could be armed and dangerous.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181056/

One of the main issues the world has had with the conflict has been the lack of aid, food medics etc allowed into Gaza. One of the main access points into Gaza is through Egypt, the Rafah gate has been the subject of much negotiation with both Egypt and Israel dragging their heels, equally Hamas haven’t exactly been cooperative. However, what I don’t see is Egypt equally accused of war crimes for blocking aid along with Isreal?

 

[spanner48]

The stated aims of Hamas and the Zionists means there's unlikely to ever be a happy ending. They want to destroy each other.

I tried to understand the history of the region after I noticed the mobilisation of so many Muslim women and children for the London marches. Why Gaza and not other genocides?

I found it impossible to unravel because the region changed hands so many times.

I did conclude that the Muslim protesters are mostly there because they want to reclaim Jerusalem and the Al Aqsa mosque which is the third most important site to them because of Mohammed's night time journey across the Middle East and a subsequent chat with Allah.
Making Jerusalem the capital city instead of Tel Aviv was also contentious.

The stated aims of Hamas and the Zionists means there's unlikely to ever be a happy ending. They want to destroy each other.

I tried to understand the history of the region after I noticed the mobilisation of so many Muslim women and children for the London marches. Why Gaza and not other genocides?

I found it impossible to unravel because the region changed hands so many times.

I did conclude that the Muslim protesters are mostly there because they want to reclaim Jerusalem and the Al Aqsa mosque which is the third most important site to them because of Mohammed's night time journey across the Middle East and a subsequent chat with Allah.
Making Jerusalem the capital city instead of Tel Aviv was also contentious.

See this:

 

[spanner48]

The stated aims of Hamas and the Zionists means there's unlikely to ever be a happy ending. They want to destroy each other.

I tried to understand the history of the region after I noticed the mobilisation of so many Muslim women and children for the London marches. Why Gaza and not other genocides?

I found it impossible to unravel because the region changed hands so many times.

I did conclude that the Muslim protesters are mostly there because they want to reclaim Jerusalem and the Al Aqsa mosque which is the third most important site to them because of Mohammed's night time journey across the Middle East and a subsequent chat with Allah.
Making Jerusalem the capital city instead of Tel Aviv was also contentious.

See this:

Overview of Palestine demographics

Year Jews Christians Muslims

Early C1 Majority
C4 Majority Minority
C5 Minority Majority
C6 Minority Majority
C7 Minority Majority
C8 Minority Majority Minority
C9 Minority Majority Minority
C10 Minority Majority Minority
C11 Minority Majority Minority
C12 Minority Minority Majority
C14 Minority Minority Majority
1535 3 6 145
1690 2 11 219
1800 7 22 246
1890 43 57 452
1914 94 70 525
1922 84 71 589
1931 175 89 750
1947 630 143 1151

Figures in thousands. Estimates by Sergio DellaPergola [2001], drawing on the work of Bachi [1975]

 

[mudman]

The curve function maps through the four points. Read the article carefully. Consider whether you are not yourself on the left-hand peak.

I take you haven't read it. There are no peaks.
You are referencing some graph created by inspirational speaker types who have then used a label they know but don't understand to describe it.
Go and do some research and maybe you'll find that you are on the low end of the competence scale giving yourself a high score estimate.
Not really bothered by you not understanding it, but when someone tries to be rude to someone by referring to some published research, you should know what you are talking about.

 

[spanner48]

The curve represents a diachronic progress, with increasing knowledge.

This correspondence is now closed.

 

[mudman]

The curve represents a diachronic progress, with increasing knowledge.

This correspondence is no closed.

Definitely a spanner.

 

[Croolis]

On my many sojurns through internets forums full of the peeps trying to one-up each other, it's kind of teeth grinding to see how often Dunning-Kruger (of which I know zero besides a vague notion of the research) comes up as a bit of (probably ill-advised) ammo.

"I see the Dunning-Kruger effect in action here fnarrr fnarrr"

 

[Scruples]

Hamas and Palestine does and has used children as weapons of war. There have been documented circumstances of babies being dressed in secure vests. For me, that puts into perspective children being shot. The perspective that children are all inoccent bystanders is simply not true. Unfortunately Hanas do not dress their terrorists in a uniform to allow them to be identified, anyone could be armed and dangerous.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-181056/

One of the main issues the world has had with the conflict has been the lack of aid, food medics etc allowed into Gaza. One of the main access points into Gaza is through Egypt, the Rafah gate has been the subject of much negotiation with both Egypt and Israel dragging their heels, equally Hamas haven’t exactly been cooperative. However, what I don’t see is Egypt equally accused of war crimes for blocking aid along with Isreal?

If the Israelis don't abide by the conventions of war, why should the Palestines?

 

[Cozzer]

Just noticed that, according to my wall calendar, tomorrow is the "UN International Day of Peace".


Good luck with that, then....

 

[Jacob]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

 

[Jake]

Not antisemitic; anti-Zionist. Kindly observe the difference.

Not necessarily anti-zionist either. A zionist is just someone who wants Israel to exist at all. Some zionists are radical and fanatical, but being anti-zionist is to oppose the existence of Israel not to oppose just that subset.