Electric vehicles

[johnb80]

Heating up sand brings back memories of electric storage heaters using off peak leccy. They worked quite well - Economy 7 etc.

Aye, there are boilers now that work on the same principle but have a better heat retention than sand. Tepeo

 

[Rhossydd]

Snag is with diesels, if you live in or near London, you need a PFI loan to fund the Khan taxes and penalties. And for an SUV diesel the road tax is insane.

I drive a 9 year old diesel estate, £20 pa VED and ULEZ compliant. No issues driving into London regularly.

 

[Lons]

And for an SUV diesel the road tax is insane.

It must be just the newer ones as my GLC SUV diesel costs the same as my wife's petrol mini at £190 currently as does our diesel motorhome. All that will likely change next month of course as Ms Reeves needs to replace her clothing allowance, err... I mean office expenses.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

https://rogerboyd.substack.com/p/the-ongoing-collapse-of-the-western

"Between now and the end of 2026, the Chinese domestic market is on track to achieve nearly 100% EV market share. The intense levels of competition are driving the Chinese EV manufacturers to continuously innovate and reduce prices at a rate that the Western manufacturers (except perhaps Hyundai and Kia) cannot keep up with. The result will be a domestic market nearly totally dominated by Chinese EV manufacturers, with levels of efficiency, innovation and tight profit margins unheard of in the West."

 

[sploo]

Having had diesels for decades I don't recall going out of my way for fuel or getting diesel on my hands.

In my experience, if there are gloves at a forecourt the diesel pumps are really nice and clean. If there are no gloves, the pumps are basically swimming in diesel.

I still keep a hand sanitiser in the car; not for sanitising, but to try to mask the smell of oily dinosaur juice

 

[Spectric]

But even if we didn't the 32Kw home charger is cheap off peak and MUCH less than petrol.

I suppose that there is another advantage that you have not mentioned in that now you have three phase laid on for the EV charger that could also be ultilised in your workshop so you could have some lovely big solid machinery.

It’s the Mercedes GLC which has an 80 mile battery range.

We need to remember that you can easily get 250 miles on a full tank of fuel with many ICE vehicles so 80 is not fantastic. I still believe that for now hybrids are the way forward and PHEV's because you are not just battery powered so if the battery runs flat or you find yourself miles from the nearst charging point you are not stranded.

Furthermore, the more you guys keep knocking EV's the lower the demand is which drives the prices down

In some countries like Germany the sales of EV's have fallen once the government stops the subsidies so how many people would still buy an EV if the subsidies were not there ?

Where I am there is not a large number of garages and the ones I use have no intention of undertaking the training to work on EV's because there are other associated cost such as higher business insurance and so leave them to main dealers who just ship them out to get them repaired elsewhere. The garage I use will not do any work on an EV even brake pads because they are not covered on insurance.

All that will likely change next month of course as Ms Reeves needs to replace her clothing allowance, err... I mean office expenses.

You forget the botox, now she has that personal photographer it was needed.

 

[johnb80]

In some countries like Germany the sales of EV's have fallen once the government stops the subsidies so how many people would still buy an EV if the subsidies were not there ?

I have, twice with no subsidies and even if there was additional charges I would still buy EV because it's so much better.

Where I am there is not a large number of garages and the ones I use have no intention of undertaking the training to work on EV's

That will soon top be a business dying then over the next few years. Daft outlook really.

because there are other associated cost such as higher business insurance

on what grounds? If customers of insurance companies allow them to get away with charging more, they deserve the higher bill. There's no increased risk working on EV's than on ICE vehicles. There is the mass hysteria caused by the media but reality is there's no greater risk to insurers.

and so leave them to main dealers who just ship them out to get them repaired elsewhere.

Thats a sweeping statement that I would contest, my local BMW Dealer (Soper in Lincoln) have several master techs on the various models and do onsite repairs etc, definitely not sent away.

The garage I use will not do any work on an EV even brake pads because they are not covered on insurance.

I'm sorry, thats their own stupid fault, choose a better insurer not a third rate one that wont cover EV work in garage, ridiculous if it's true, frankly I'd take that with a pinch of salt.

 

[Spectric]

There's no increased risk working on EV's than on ICE vehicles.

The difference is 12 volts to 400 volts and there are very few electrical engineers working in automotive.

choose a better insurer not a third rate one that wont cover EV work in garage

Insurers make certain stipulations, one is the people need to be fully trained and on the basis of safety because you don't let your average mechanic loose with lethal voltages. Also they are still playing the risk of fire card. An EV is a very different system to work on, when the local garages struggle to even employ an average motor engineer then asking for EV technicians is really not happening.

 

[johnb80]

The difference is 12 volts to 400 volts and there are very few electrical engineers working in automotive.

Many are 800v nowadays but this still doesnt create a greater risk for an insurer, no flammable liquids, very little heat etc.

Insurers make certain stipulations, one is the people need to be fully trained and on the basis of safety because you don't let your average mechanic loose with lethal voltages.

Of course that goes without saying. Garages that arent continuing CPD wont be in business very much longer EV's or not.

Also they are still playing the risk of fire card.

ICE vehicles are 10x more likely to burn than EV's

An EV is a very different system to work on,

It is, it's much simpler, fewer moving parts, very modular chunks.

when the local garages struggle to even employ an average motor engineer then asking for EV technicians is really not happening.

Try talking to colleges that train vehicle techs, nearly all candidates are doing EV's now.

Current businesses have to move with the market or fail. If they cant find EV Tech's then they need to recruit trainees and day release them to college etc.

 

[selectortone]

It is, it's much simpler, fewer moving parts, very modular chunks.

Absolutely. An EV is basically a big washing machine motor with lots of clever electronics. (Yes, I know, that might be oversimplified a bit - but not a lot.) Compare that with a modern internal combustion engine with thousands of parts machined to incredible tolerances and high temperatures, working at amazing speeds (especially now with turbos), and also lots of clever electronics and software to make it all run in harmony and meet ever tighter environmental specs.

 

[Jameshow]

Many are 800v nowadays but this still doesnt create a greater risk for an insurer, no flammable liquids, very little heat etc.


Of course that goes without saying. Garages that arent continuing CPD wont be in business very much longer EV's or not.


ICE vehicles are 10x more likely to burn than EV's


It is, it's much simpler, fewer moving parts, very modular chunks.


Try talking to colleges that train vehicle techs, nearly all candidates are doing EV's now.

Current businesses have to move with the market or fail. If they cant find EV Tech's then they need to recruit trainees and day release them to college etc.

They will trickle down from main stealers I expect. The majority of smaller garages won't see an EV for 10 years yet ..

Perhaps brakes on a leaf but anything HV electrical will write it off.

 

[Lons]

That will soon top be a business dying then over the next few years. Daft outlook really.

Your reasoning is flawed. ICE vehicles will be around in large numbers for a very long time to come and any decent repair garage will continue to thrive especially as owners reluctant to switch are already hanging on to the cars for much longer so needing more maintenance. I'm one of those who previously changed my car at 2 to 3 years and sometimes less, I've hung on to my high spec, low mileage car because I'm unwilling to spend £70k of it's hybrid equivalent or even more for full EV.

I have 2 friends, both owners of independent garages one of which services our cars and neither of them are concerned in the least. Decent quality, low mileage ICE cars are still in reasonable demand and will require servicing.

I'm not anti EV btw, far from it I just don't see it as the panacea and until it's developed much further or alternatives found I won't be buying in.

 

[johnb80]

Your reasoning is flawed. ICE vehicles will be around in large numbers for a very long time to come and any decent repair garage will continue to thrive especially as owners reluctant to switch are already hanging on to the cars for much longer so needing more maintenance.

Average life of a car using garage maintenance I would gues at around 10 years, after that time, they will be run into the ground and then scrapped. Any business owner should be looking for more than 10 years future IMHO.

I'm one of those who previously changed my car at 2 to 3 years and sometimes less, I've hung on to my high spec, low mileage car because I'm unwilling to spend £70k of it's hybrid equivalent or even more for full EV.

Entirely your choice and Ive never suggested anything different.

I have 2 friends, both owners of independent garages one of which services our cars and neither of them are concerned in the least. Decent quality, low mileage ICE cars are still in reasonable demand and will require servicing.

I'll be interested to hear their views in 10 years time.

I'm not anti EV btw, far from it I just don't see it as the panacea and until it's developed much further or alternatives found I won't be buying in.

I think EV's have developed to a very usable machine now, obviously they will improve further. In terms of performance, running costs, maintenance, comfort theyre already miles ahead of their ICE counterparts.

 

[Lons]

Average life of a car using garage maintenance I would gues at around 10 years, after that time, they will be run into the ground and then scrapped. Any business owner should be looking for more than 10 years future IMHO.


Entirely your choice and Ive never suggested anything different.


I'll be interested to hear their views in 10 years time.


I think EV's have developed to a very usable machine now, obviously they will improve further. In terms of performance, running costs, maintenance, comfort theyre already miles ahead of their ICE counterparts.

I don't agree.

* There are a hell of a lot of cars older than 10 years on the road already and that's likely to be the case for a long time. The biggest killer, rust is no longer the problem it was and suggesting cars older than 10 years won't be repaired or serviced is guess work at best.

* I never suggested that you suggested it, don't get your knickers in a twist. Life is too short.

* I'd suggest my friend's views won't be any different and they'll still be in business and prospering. I didn't suggest btw that they wouldn't in future service EV's they just don't at present and are overflowing with work.

* Of course they've developed and are continuing to do so. I'm happy for you that they suit your needs, they don't for me at present. We're all different and personally having driven a couple of MGs I thought the build quality was pretty poor. That's just my opinion of course but I wouldn't have one.

 

[paulrbarnard]

We need to remember that you can easily get 250 miles on a full tank of fuel with many ICE vehicles so 80 is not fantastic. I still believe that for now hybrids are the way forward and PHEV's because you are not just battery powered so if the battery runs flat or you find yourself miles from the nearst charging point you are not stranded.

My Landrover with long range fuel tanks has a range of 1000miles between fill ups. So really 250 miles is not so fantastic.

In some countries like Germany the sales of EV's have fallen once the government stops the subsidies so how many people would still buy an EV if the subsidies were not there

It was reported yesterday that sales of EV in Finland now exceeds ICE.

 

[Lons]

It was reported yesterday that sales of EV in Finland now exceeds ICE.

One of the reasons for that is because Finland offer substantial subsidies on the sale of EVs and PHEVs ( the latter having the lions share of sales apparently) There is zero tax on those making for substantial savings especially for fleet buyers and a reduction of E170 per month on benefit in kind for employees. No annual vehicle tax on BEVs (that is of course about to change in the UK). They also have put sizeable subsidies of 30 and 35% into the infrastructure and other areas such as cheap or free parking.

Finland had overall sales of 61099 new car registrations (Jan - Aug) in 2023 down to 50905 this year which is a decrease of 16.7% and like the UK those figures are often skewed by pre registered but unsold cars sitting on the forecourt.

Unfortunately the UK picture doesn't look as progressive.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I don't agree.

* There are a hell of a lot of cars older than 10 years on the road already and that's likely to be the case for a long time. The biggest killer, rust is no longer the problem it was and suggesting cars older than 10 years won't be repaired or serviced is guess work at best.

* I never suggested that you suggested it, don't get your knickers in a twist. Life is too short.

* I'd suggest my friend's views won't be any different and they'll still be in business and prospering. I didn't suggest btw that they wouldn't in future service EV's they just don't at present and are overflowing with work.

* Of course they've developed and are continuing to do so. I'm happy for you that they suit your needs, they don't for me at present. We're all different and personally having driven a couple of MGs I thought the build quality was pretty poor. That's just my opinion of course but I wouldn't have one.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The UK is transitioning and that’s what motor engineers will do as demand shifts.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

There are a little over 1m EVs registered in the UK out of a total of 30m+.

The opportunities for independent EV specialists is limited at present due to:

• low volumes,
• most EVs are relatively young,
• many still under manufacturers warranty,
• technology evolving rapidly - manufacture and holding spares uneconomic.

However the future is clear.

ICE will age and demand for repairs and maintenance diminish. In 10 years time as ICE is banned, 40-50% of cars registered are still likely to be ICE. Independent ICE only garages will be closing due to competition for an ever smaller ICE user base. Older mechanics will prevail as younger folk will not want to train to serve a dying specialism.

As sales of EVs grow, the registered "fleet" ages, and technology stabilises, demand for EV skills will increase rapidly. As with ICE, EV owners will frequently desert franchised dealers post warranty for independents likely to be materially cheaper.

Were I in the motor business or an electrical engineer aged 50+ I would be relatively unconcerned about retraining. Retirement would likely precede skill obsolescence. Aged under 40 I would retrain to avoid potential loss of job and income in later years.

 

[MikeJhn]

"Between now and the end of 2026, the Chinese domestic market is on track to achieve nearly 100% EV market share. The intense levels of competition are driving the Chinese EV manufacturers to continuously innovate and reduce prices at a rate that the Western manufacturers (except perhaps Hyundai and Kia) cannot keep up with. The result will be a domestic market nearly totally dominated by Chinese EV manufacturers, with levels of efficiency, innovation and tight profit margins unheard of in the West."

All manufactured using 1200 coal fired power stations.

 

[johnb80]

I don't agree.

* There are a hell of a lot of cars older than 10 years on the road already and that's likely to be the case for a long time. The biggest killer, rust is no longer the problem it was and suggesting cars older than 10 years won't be repaired or serviced is guess work at best.

I agree there are loads of cars on the roads ovger 10 years old, what I said was vehicles of this age are unlikely to be garage maintained at £60 per hour labour charge and will more likely be run into the ground and then scrapped.

* I never suggested that you suggested it, don't get your knickers in a twist. Life is too short.

My underwear is definitely not twisted and agreed life is very short.

* I'd suggest my friend's views won't be any different and they'll still be in business and prospering. I didn't suggest btw that they wouldn't in future service EV's they just don't at present and are overflowing with work.

It seemed the point you were making was that he was busy with ICE and had no intention of going down the EV route.

* Of course they've developed and are continuing to do so. I'm happy for you that they suit your needs, they don't for me at present. We're all different and personally having driven a couple of MGs I thought the build quality was pretty poor.

Prior to my EV's I had always favoured German cars (VW, AUDI) and finally a Range Rover. The build quality of the German cars was second to none, absolutely excellent. The Range Rover was a very nice place to be, mechanically it was great but the build quality and design was dreadful. For a £80,000 + car it was completely unacceptable. We ventured into EV's with a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, this suited our needs and was utterly reliable for the 180,000 miles that we had it. My Range Rover I sold and bought my BMW i3, back to German Engineering. We eventually sold the Mitsubishi and looked for a pure EV to replace it. I booked a test drive of the MG5 having seen excellent reviews of it online but I told myself that I had to remember this was a budget car and not to expect too much. I was amazed when I first sat inside, it could have easily been from Mercedes, BMW, VW, Audi etc, the quality was really up there with them. Driving was good, plenty of bells an whistles if that floats your boat, the seats are amongst the best I've sat on, very comfortable indeed. Exterior, panel fit was as good as I've seen, way better than Range Rover. A warranty of 7 years / 100,000 miles makes it a package to be considered and currently available for £19k!! I accept some of the earlier models were typically plasticky and poor quality but their latest offerings like the MG4 and MG5 are in a completely different league.

That's just my opinion of course but I wouldn't have one.

Maybe it would be worth another look with an open mind when youre next in the market for a car?