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... all BMW, Audi and my current Merc for the same quality reasons as you ...

In reliability tables now they tend do do badly.
  1. Subaru 90.66%
  2. Tesla 90.55%
  3. Kia 89.35%
  4. Porsche 89.16%
  5. Citroen 88.22%
  6. Peugeot 88.03%
  7. Mazda 88.01%
  8. Toyota 87.74%
  9. Jaguar 87.72%
  10. Land Rover 87.63%
  11. Honda 87.56%
  12. Lexus 87.17%
  13. Alfa Romeo 86.86%
  14. BMW 86.69%
  15. Nissan 86.54%
  16. Volvo 86.48%
  17. Hyundai 86.36%
  18. Cupra 86.28%
  19. Suzuki 86.26%
  20. MINI 86.26%
  21. Mitsubishi 86.09%
  22. Dacia 86.01%
  23. Skoda 86.00%
  24. SEAT 85.84%
  25. Mercedes 85.55%
  26. Vauxhall 85.50%
  27. Audi 85.43%
  28. Renault 85.30%
  29. Volkswagen 84.80%
  30. Ford 84.58%
  31. Fiat 84.13%
  32. MG 82.01%
It is not clear what the percentages relate to.

However it demonstrates that even the least reliable of cars are very close to the most reliable.

In position 5 - Citroen - 88%. In position 28 - Renault - 85%..

Conclusion - any small differences in reliability are probably inconsequential compared to the other considerations in car purchase - eg: price, performance, gizmos, distance to dealer etc.
 
Battery swapping would increase the cost of EV's due to the additional equipment needed. The practicalities of it dont add up. You cant simply slide in and out a battery pack of these weights without some serious engineering in both the car and the site equipment. The problems associated with connecting and disconnecting the high voltage/high current cables would be a nightmare. The battery condition could also be a very major factor, your 99% health battery gets swapped out and one with only 70% health due to abuse gets loaded = not a happy bunny. Many EV's have the battery as an integral part of the structure EG Tesla, VW etc.


It wont happen.
Most PHEV batteries also connect to the engine cooling system just to add to the complexity. I used to think that a standardized battery swapped at filling stations was the best way forward, with larger vehicles taking multiple units, there would be lots of advantages - till I worked on the cars - it's not.
 
In 2006 I went to buy a car. I looked at a Renault Scenic and a Skoda Octavia, and decided to buy the Scenic as the design suited us better. A week later I read a reliability table by chance - the Skoda was 5th out of 157, the Scenic 151st. The Scenic was a brilliant design, but gave us endless automatic gearbox problem.
 
Most PHEV batteries also connect to the engine cooling system just to add to the complexity.
I'd have to disagree with you on this one, theyre connected into climate control generally either with refrigerant directly or by water / antifreeze via a heat exchanger. My i3 has refrigerant lines directly into the battery and the AC compressor runs when rapid charging.
I used to think that a standardized battery swapped at filling stations was the best way forward, with larger vehicles taking multiple units, there would be lots of advantages - till I worked on the cars - it's not.
Agreed
 
... all BMW, Audi and my current Merc for the same quality reasons as you ...

In reliability tables now they tend do do badly.
  1. Subaru 90.66%
  2. Tesla 90.55%
  3. Kia 89.35%
  4. Porsche 89.16%
  5. Citroen 88.22%
  6. Peugeot 88.03%
  7. Mazda 88.01%
  8. Toyota 87.74%
  9. Jaguar 87.72%
  10. Land Rover 87.63%
  11. Honda 87.56%
  12. Lexus 87.17%
  13. Alfa Romeo 86.86%
  14. BMW 86.69%
  15. Nissan 86.54%
  16. Volvo 86.48%
  17. Hyundai 86.36%
  18. Cupra 86.28%
  19. Suzuki 86.26%
  20. MINI 86.26%
  21. Mitsubishi 86.09%
  22. Dacia 86.01%
  23. Skoda 86.00%
  24. SEAT 85.84%
  25. Mercedes 85.55%
  26. Vauxhall 85.50%
  27. Audi 85.43%
  28. Renault 85.30%
  29. Volkswagen 84.80%
  30. Ford 84.58%
  31. Fiat 84.13%
  32. MG 82.01%
Except, as mentioned, that's not a reliability chart, it's a satisfaction chart. Owners were asked over 36 odd categories. Reliability could come 10th or 2nd but it would be cancelled out by a positive response to a majority of the other 35 questions.

June 2024 based solely on reliability:

Lexus
Toyota
Mini
Suzuki
Mitsubishi
Honda
Hyundai
Kia
Volvo
Tesla

Subaru? Lovely cars but usual electrical issues.
 
lots of third party companies that can rebuild / repair ECU's etc.
That is fine but do not overlook the security aspect, there is more to just fitting a replacement ECU in that it often needs a download from the OEM which requires an account and access codes. An example was a Peugeot we had that started giving all sorts of electrical issues such as would not turn off and the wipers had a mind of there own and this was a module failure. Sourced a module and luckily the guy who was sorting it knew someone at the local main dealer who he does a lot of work for and got the required code for this vehicle and he had an account. It still took ages even when the original code was downloaded as it would not crank or start. The problem or one of them was this module came from a two door and this one had four doors so the module was seeing four door lock motors which just made it stop and shut down. Even when it was running there were issues with the fuel gauge and speedo because they needed some calibration data entered so all in not a simple job. The other issue is the actual wiring interconnects, these are not of a great quality and are often a source of failure on the older motors and changing a loom is not a five minute job, even just the engine loom can take a long time.
 
That is fine but do not overlook the security aspect, there is more to just fitting a replacement ECU in that it often needs a download from the OEM which requires an account and access codes. An example was a Peugeot we had that started giving all sorts of electrical issues such as would not turn off and the wipers had a mind of there own and this was a module failure. Sourced a module and luckily the guy who was sorting it knew someone at the local main dealer who he does a lot of work for and got the required code for this vehicle and he had an account. It still took ages even when the original code was downloaded as it would not crank or start. The problem or one of them was this module came from a two door and this one had four doors so the module was seeing four door lock motors which just made it stop and shut down. Even when it was running there were issues with the fuel gauge and speedo because they needed some calibration data entered so all in not a simple job. The other issue is the actual wiring interconnects, these are not of a great quality and are often a source of failure on the older motors and changing a loom is not a five minute job, even just the engine loom can take a long time.
That's why I said there are third party companies around that will repair / rebuild ECU's. They do this to the original ECU so it doesn't need coding / main deal access.
 
So you didn't read the article in Autocar I linked to then ?
I have seen the info before about battery swap systems and it really will not work for all of the reasons stated. Theres an article in Autocar years ago about Hydrogen, how good it was and it would be the saviour of ICE, look where we are!

It's a reality, has been running in China and is just being rolled out in Europe.
Time will tell, I'll wager it wont happen.

It'll only get better and more refined as it's taken up.
It'll only get better and more refined if it's taken up which is highly unlikely.
 
and ignoring all of the vehicle warnings which in my experience are plentiful.
Very much depends on type of car and age etc. Yes they all (apart from very very early cars) have petrol gauges but that’s the only certainty.
 
But only if they can recover the original image file, in many cases this is corrupt and the checksums fail so you have no choice but to get a clean download.
Not true, most of the issues with ECU's relate to input and output circuitry, these can be fixed with no issues to the coded data. I agree if it's reverse polarity jump start type of situation it's unlikely that they could fix that without access to main dealer tech.
 
Very much depends on type of car and age etc. Yes they all (apart from very very early cars) have petrol gauges but that’s the only certainty.
There isnt a single EV I know of that doesnt nag you to death when range is becoming short. Most link into inbuilt Sat Nav and start to show you where charging points are.
 
What in particular made you feel the build quality wasnt good?
I can't remember everything tbh just felt there was too much hard plastic, the car squeaked and creaked like ****, motors whined, especially in reverse which was a surprise but maybe normal, the car felt small, I didn't like the shape and not even the bright blue colour. It was a demo with only a couple of thousand miles on the clock and priced at around £25k which seemed ok for the spec but that was all. The salesman dug me out his top of the range model (his words) which was close to £40k and I didn't like that either. My daughter had a loan MG, smaller model earlier this year after she wrote off her car and that was bloody horrible.

Maybe it's just me but I thought the BMW i3 was a horrible little car as well, don't know about the quality just didn't like the design. I looked at it a couple of times over the years when changing Minis but it wasn't in the running as the missus hated it even more. :LOL:
I didn't think the i3 was all that successful as they canned it and I'm not sure if they bothered making a replacement, I'm out of touch so could be wrong.

I don't really believe those lists either and usually take little notice. My car for example has been virtually fault free but the Newcastle main dealer where I bought it are a different matter so if satisfaction is involved I'd give them a minus 10.
The Minis have all be excellent as well, in fact the only car we had very briefly was a Nissan Juke (yes I know, but not my choice), which was a heap of junk that kept shedding parts and the service was cr*p.
 
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I agree with Lons re MG. We had a MG EV for about 6 weeks this year as a loan car and I hated that car with a passion. Chinese made and it was deeply uncomfortable, awful controls, awful dash, awful satnav. Really put me off the brand.
 
"Between now and the end of 2026, the Chinese domestic market is on track to achieve nearly 100% EV market share. The intense levels of competition are driving the Chinese EV manufacturers to continuously innovate and reduce prices at a rate that the Western manufacturers (except perhaps Hyundai and Kia) cannot keep up with. The result will be a domestic market nearly totally dominated by Chinese EV manufacturers, with levels of efficiency, innovation and tight profit margins unheard of in the West."

All manufactured using 1200 coal fired power stations.
'Ever since the central government has designated the expansion of renewable energy as a national project, the country has invested heavily in the expansion of renewable energy capacity, making China a global leader in wind and solar power.' (Statista)

8 Mar 2024 — China unleashed the full might of its solar energy industry last year. It installed more solar panels than the United States has in its history. - NT Times.

And even the Guardian says -

China building two-thirds of world's wind and solar projects

In 2023, China's solar power capacity increased by 55.2%, which is more than the United States has added in its entire history.
 
There isnt a single EV I know of that doesnt nag you to death when range is becoming short. Most link into inbuilt Sat Nav and start to show you where charging points are.
Apologies John as I thought you were referring to ICE cars.

I think with EVs everyone has a different experience. I appreciate that you like yours but the other side of the coin is this extract from the Telegraph

I’ve run electric test cars before, of course, often only for a week or two, but mostly for a day where at the end paid flunkies take the car away and charge it.

This was going to be different, no hydrocarbon fuel at all. And I cover a lot of miles, never certain where I’m going to be summoned to next week or next month, often having to change plans at the last moment. Usually, I keep a full fuel tank and a packed bag, which wasn’t going to be quite so simple with an electric car.

The car? A Ford Mustang Mach-e Premium RWD, £63,030’s worth of 289bhp/430Nm, 98kWh large SUV. The claimed range is a useful 372 miles in the WLTP cycle. We’ll see…

……
My first job was in Hatfield, a 100-mile round trip, for a car review. My app showed a couple of Porsche 350kW chargers at a nearby dealer but they were coned off. Instead, it was a six-mile round trip to a Shell Recharge. Nominally rated at 175kW, so a quick fill for the Ford which will accept a 150kW DC charge, but in this case the charger never got above 60kW; by the time the battery showed 90 per cent the current was trickling in at less than 20kW and I had eaten the apple and started my library book. A 30 per cent charge took 45 minutes, welcome to real life…

It continues in a similar vein….He did agree with you re the cost of charging although why the Government should be providing these escapes me. If they can scrap the WFA…..


Personally I’m thinking a hybrid is the ideal choice although the extra complexity makes me nervous….more things to go wrong!
 
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I can't remember everything tbh just felt there was too much hard plastic, the car squeaked and creaked like ****, motors whined, especially in reverse which was a surprise but maybe normal, the car felt small, I didn't like the shape and not even the bright blue colour. It was a demo with only a couple of thousand miles on the clock and priced at around £25k which seemed ok for the spec but that was all. The salesman dug me out his top of the range model (his words) which was close to £40k and I didn't like that either. My daughter had a loan MG, smaller model earlier this year after she wrote off her car and that was bloody horrible.
Phew, you do seem to dislike it yet every single independent review of the MG4 and MG5 is favourable saying the exact opposite of your experience..

Maybe it's just me but I thought the BMW i3 was a horrible little car as well, don't know about the quality just didn't like the design.
It is a little bit of a 'Marmite' car, love it or hate it with no middle ground. I like all of the design except the back end. It's an extraordinary car, very much like the tardis, loads of room inside yet apparently small outside. It's composite shell makes both light, strong and corrosion proof. It is amazingly efficient and all excellent quality made from recycled materials.

I looked at it a couple of times over the years when changing Minis but it wasn't in the running as the missus hated it even more. :LOL:
Good job we dont all like the same 😂
I didn't think the i3 was all that successful as they canned it and I'm not sure if they bothered making a replacement, I'm out of touch so could be wrong.
It was a great success, 250,000 of them made over the 8 year production run. It was BMW's first step into EV's and it won many awards:-
"
Iit was awarded the "Green Steering Wheel” already in 2013, followed three years later by the "Golden Steering Wheel", also awarded by "Auto Bild" and "Bild am Sonntag". The design, vehicle concept, interior, sustainability, value retention and connectivity technology of the BMW i3 received further national and international awards and public survey successes. These include class victories in the competitions of the magazines "Auto Zeitung" and "auto, motor und sport", awards as "UK Car of the Year", "Green Car of the Year", "Classic of the Future" and "Swiss Car of the Year" as well as the "World Car Design Award", the "iF gold product design award" and the French "Trophée de l'argus".

I don't really believe those lists either and usually take little notice. My car for example has been virtually fault free but the Newcastle main dealer where I bought it are a different matter so if satisfaction is involved I'd give them a minus 10.
The Minis have all be excellent as well, in fact the only car we had very briefly was a Nissan Juke (yes I know, but not my choice), which was a heap of junk that kept shedding parts and the service was cr*p.
Nissan Puke really doesn't appeal to me LOL, I hate them with a passion.
 

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