Electric vehicles

[Lons]

Hi beech
The e-tron GT is probably one of the few I would look at but at around £90k it's way out of my comfort range. Presumably it was the e-tron SUV if you were comparing against the i-pace, I haven't looked at either but when I bought my current SUV I drove both the Audi Q5 and the F Pace and I was disappointed with the Jag as though it drove nicely it felt flimsy and poor quality. EVs are a long way off for me yet.

 

[Bodone]

We've the golf e, 150miles in summer, high 90's in winter. It's the run around car and does the odd 80 mile round trip to lincoln. As a second car we've a diesel, so use that for anything longer. Works fine for us.

Tried most EV's, range isn't there for me yet, also for the money, the quality, ride and handling need to be much better. Will be interesting to see the new bmw range.

Were i work they're asking us all to go electric, will come down to how they support us.

 

[Suffolk Brian]

I’ll start things of my saying I have a petrol electric self charging hybrid - a Toyota if you are interested - and have no desire to go full electric. From where we live in Suffolk, if we want to visit our grandkids, then that is a (roughly) 400 mile round trip. Anyone got a car that will reliably do that on one charge? The manufacturers admit that after about 8 years batteries will have lost over 20% of their capacity, so that knocks your mileage back. The you put on lights, heater, screen demister, air con, etc etc. All of these will knock your range back even more. But the big bug for me is the batteries. I think there are some nasty chemicals in those batteries. What will happen to them at end of life? They are also quite heavy, so you need a bigger motor to give petrol equivalence. Several clips I have seen show batteries under slung beneath the body of the car. Had a stone hit your windscreen? What happens if a stone gets to puncture a battery case? Will you be able to get to a garage? What will that cost to repair?
thanks, but I will stick with my hybrid.

 

[beech1948]

I’ll start things of my saying I have a petrol electric self charging hybrid - a Toyota if you are interested - and have no desire to go full electric. From where we live in Suffolk, if we want to visit our grandkids, then that is a (roughly) 400 mile round trip. Anyone got a car that will reliably do that on one charge? The manufacturers admit that after about 8 years batteries will have lost over 20% of their capacity, so that knocks your mileage back. The you put on lights, heater, screen demister, air con, etc etc. All of these will knock your range back even more. But the big bug for me is the batteries. I think there are some nasty chemicals in those batteries. What will happen to them at end of life? They are also quite heavy, so you need a bigger motor to give petrol equivalence. Several clips I have seen show batteries under slung beneath the body of the car. Had a stone hit your windscreen? What happens if a stone gets to puncture a battery case? Will you be able to get to a garage? What will that cost to repair?
thanks, but I will stick with my hybrid.

Brian,
Thats where my brain has gone as well. I'm a bit disappointed in EV range performance as like you I have a number of family connection which entail a minimum 250 mile journey so a 500 mile round trip. That would be at least 2 charge stops if I pushed the car to the limit and probably 4.

The charge time is too long a stop and the UK infrastructure for road warriors like me too uncertain and fragile.

Next week I have a Toyota RAV4 Business SUV on trial. Thats a hybrid with a 2.5 litre engine + electric motor which will cover 40 miles ish. Recharges itself from the 2.5 litre engine. Problem is the 2.5ltr engine seems to defeat the purpose of trying to go to an EV. The whole point of this activity is to try to decide what to do about company cars for the future.

I have been amazed that UK petrol and diesel miles per gallon in most cars is so poor. Where is the average 70+ mpg we should have got to by now. Nowhere. Why no Gov legislation to force mpg up to say 70 mpg. Car manufacturers seem to get away with blue murder with few Gov checks.

I have managed to cut my companies overall mileage by 32% last year and want to do better this year but why am I having to do this on my own with zero support and no interest from other businesses and the Gov. Cutting mileage was a by product of a £1.6 million investment in my business and this is already showing a substantial payback.
The one area where there is no recognition is HMG who seem oblivious.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

My wife and I both have (petrol) cars.

Mine gets used for the longer trips - 400 mile round trips fairly frequently to see family and friends, and winter in Southern Spain. I would not be confident in using an EV for these unless I have a lots of time to waste.

Wife has a 10 year old city car. Used locally with an occassional 100 miles round trip. Does 2-3000 miles in a normal year. An EV would be fine - but it makes no sense either environmentally, or financially to spend £20k+ on a new small EV.

Plug in hybrid for me may be an option when I change - at least local journeys would be electric and still usable for longer journeys.

 

[skeetstar]

There is no need to scrap the entire car becase the battery is degraded. Manufacturers will (have to) have programs in place.

Manufacturers will do what is most profitable for them.
I have no idea of the price of EVs, but if the battery really is half the cost of a new car, who is going to buy a 9 year old car knowing that within 12 months thet will have to spend 10 or 20k on it. The car in that instance will be virtually worthless.

Not sure we understand the economics of EVs yet, because we've not had them long enough..

 

[DBT85]

Manufacturers will do what is most profitable for them.
I have no idea of the price of EVs, but if the battery really is half the cost of a new car, who is going to buy a 9 year old car knowing that within 12 months thet will have to spend 10 or 20k on it. The car in that instance will be virtually worthless.

Not sure we understand the economics of EVs yet, because we've not had them long enough..

The most profitable thing for them is to recycle the vast majoirty of that battery and make a new one to put in the car. Why buy rarer and rarer commodities at higher and higher prices when you can recycle the majority of the ones you already bought and paid for a decade ago.

 

[Droogs]

~Battery it is no where near as bad as was predicted, most Teslas are showing less than 10% loss and most other manufacturers similiar numbers. The battery is intended to be replaced once a pack falls below 80% of capacity and put to a second use such as being a back up power storage unit for a house or factory where they will have at least another 15 to 20 years of usable life before being replaced and then recycled. Cars manufactured so far since its invention have lasted on average for ICE cars globaly has been 12 years or 150K miles. The bodyshells and motors of BEVs so far have shown to more than capable of of beating that due to the materials and construction methodology of modern manufacture and be still ready for another 100K at least. Even then manufacturers are talking about using PCP but refurbishing larger cars with new packs and putting the slightly depleted ones into smaller city cars where range is not needed

 

[Robbo60]

Wonder what the "road tax" system will be for EVs as they become more popular? Govt can't afford to lose all that income. Didn't realise until last year that any car over £40k(?) attracts an additional £400pa road tax. A mate of mine has a Audi Q5 4ltr Quattro and I think he said it was £720p.a.
Will resale value of ICE cars become better or worse as we near 2030?

 

[Ozi]

I’ll start things of my saying I have a petrol electric self charging hybrid - a Toyota if you are interested - and have no desire to go full electric. From where we live in Suffolk, if we want to visit our grandkids, then that is a (roughly) 400 mile round trip. Anyone got a car that will reliably do that on one charge? The manufacturers admit that after about 8 years batteries will have lost over 20% of their capacity, so that knocks your mileage back. The you put on lights, heater, screen demister, air con, etc etc. All of these will knock your range back even more. But the big bug for me is the batteries. I think there are some nasty chemicals in those batteries. What will happen to them at end of life? They are also quite heavy, so you need a bigger motor to give petrol equivalence. Several clips I have seen show batteries under slung beneath the body of the car. Had a stone hit your windscreen? What happens if a stone gets to puncture a battery case? Will you be able to get to a garage? What will that cost to repair?
thanks, but I will stick with my hybrid.

Hi Brian,

I used to work for Jaguar (retired now) I can't disagree with you on range although it's improving but wanted to answer your concern about the stone hitting a battery, those cases are tough, there is more chance of something coming up through the floor on a conventional car than it taking out a battery do you have the same worry about the engine sump on your current car I can assure you it's at far more risk.

 

[Lons]

Wonder what the "road tax" system will be for EVs as they become more popular? Govt can't afford to lose all that income. Didn't realise until last year that any car over £40k(?) attracts an additional £400pa road tax. A mate of mine has a Audi Q5 4ltr Quattro and I think he said it was £720p.a.
Will resale value of ICE cars become better or worse as we near 2030?

It was introduced in 2017 and initially included electric cars but that was changed after a fuss was made and they are currently exempt however it's a pretty safe bet that will be reintroduced at some stage. There are other exemptions where the Gov did an about turn such as motorhomes which are not available new under the £40k threshold.
The rate btw isn't £400 it's and additional £335 for cars registered this year, ( previously £325) and has to be paid for for 5 years so additional £1675 over that period and the normal tax dependant on emissions etc is on top of that. I.E. my car tax is £150 + 325 = £475 p.a.

As you say they will need to recoup that revenue and when you add in the loss of tax on diesel and petrol sales it leave an enormous black hole to fill. Almost 60p per litre in tax is a hell of a lot to get back somewhere else.

 

[DBT85]

It was introduced in 2017 and initially included electric cars but that was changed after a fuss was made and they are currently exempt however it's a pretty safe bet that will be reintroduced at some stage. There are other exemptions where the Gov did an about turn such as motorhomes which are not available new under the £40k threshold.
The rate btw isn't £400 it's and additional £335 for cars registered this year, ( previously £325) and has to be paid for for 5 years so additional £1675 over that period and the normal tax dependant on emissions etc is on top of that. I.E. my car tax is £150 + 325 = £475 p.a.

As you say they will need to recoup that revenue and when you add in the loss of tax on diesel and petrol sales it leave an enormous black hole to fill. Almost 60p per litre in tax is a hell of a lot to get back somewhere else.

I'm sure they'll invent some new reason to need to pay up more and more.

 

[marcros]

Are electric motorbikes a thing? The equivalent of sports bikes, in terms of performance rather than small scooter types.

 

[Droogs]

Oh yes

 

[Terry - Somerset]

The loss to the taxman from EV is not just the road tax (VED), but fuel taxes - duty and VAT. These are approx 5 times the value of VED.

Whist a higher rate of tax could be applied to commercial charging stations, home charging has very low tax as domestic usage for cooking, heating and lighting has only a low rate of 5% VAT.

Charging a higher price per unit (KW) for vehicle charging at home may be complex (although probably feasible in an internet connected world).

More likely I suspect is some sort of road charging - possibly depending on time of day, traffic loading, type of road (mway or local) etc.

This could be used as a tool to reduce congestion, encourage a switch to public transport, cycling, walking etc. All part of a green zero carbon future!?!?

 

[Jameshow]

Does anyone think that the smart motorway system might be a stealth preparation for toll equipment to replace fuel duty?

Just a thought?

Cheers James

 

[Sachakins]

Smart motorways (dumb name) won't in themselves be able to be used as a charging system. What will be used is the ever expanding current network of ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras. These have been touted as a crime prevention tool. But if you look around, there are more and more of them situated at the motorway slip roads, at major routes into and out of cities and towns, on bridges, tunnels and throughout the major .uk non motorway network.
The use of ANPR is being trialled on major Toll roads, M6 toll, Runcorn Widnes bridge, congestion charge areas, clean air initiatives areas. etc.
Vehicle registration marks are read automatically, and you are invoiced instantly, and paid automatically if you have a bank direct debit.

It's not beyond the realms of feasibility to quickly expand this technology for charging for vehicle excise duty by mileage and usage. So every vehicle will pay, and some more than others too.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

To put in place road charging the government could simply mandate that every electric vehicle is fitted with a GPS tracker chip which monthly takes the appropriate charge from your credit card.

It could even be able to disable the car if payment was not forthcoming!!

Existing ICE would continue to pay fuel taxes as currently, so no need to retrofit millions of vehicles.

 

[Rorschach]

A per mile charging scheme probably makes the most sense for EV's as the more you drive the more wear and tear you cause. You don't need complex GPS or ANPR though, you just charge based the mileage the vehicle shows when MOT'd.

 

[Droogs]

KIA officially launch the new EV6 on Tuesday but here is a sneak peak