Electric vehicles

[beech1948]

I'm in quite a different situation than many of you.

I still drive 25K ++ miles a year to customer meetings. I have been trying to cut back on driving by making my tech staff reduce their miles and move to Zoom or whatever the customer is comfortable with based contact.

Given my age (72) I will have to retire sometime (sigh) and arrange for my company to be run by someone else. I can see that happening around 75/76 ish with a drop to 3 days a week or move to a Chairman sort of position....you know fingers meddling in the company and annoying everyone.

I must admit to liking the Tesla even if a bit underwhelmed at present.

Costs are always a factor and I think that Tesla is just too expensive for what they are given my experience in AI and electronics. When the costs come down then I will buy as well as when the range is increased to 350 miles in cold weather. Looked at a Dacia Spring the other day for a cheaper EV....could be interesting if they ever make a RH drive one.

I'm also still tracking Toyota who are still experimenting with a Hydrogen car ( infrastructure looks problematic) and have plans to create and make a Solid State Battery.

 

[Blackswanwood]

Jaguar‘s announcement this week and VW said to be looking at floating off Porsche to generate funds for reinvestment must be signs that the tipping point isn’t too far away.

 

[Jelly]

I'm also still tracking Toyota who are still experimenting with a Hydrogen car ( infrastructure looks problematic) and have plans to create and make a Solid State Battery.

I seriously looked at leasing a Mirai (which involved a fair bit of pestering Toyota, as they don't actively market them yet in the UK when I was looking, that's planned for 2021)

It's a fabulous car, not blistering performance wise, but extremely well specified for the money, and nice driving experience in comfort, by all accounts the new one is better still.

If you lived in Sheffield, Aberdeen, Birmingham, Coventry, Pontypridd, Port Talbot, Swindon or Greater London, or could guarantee never needing to go more that 400 miles without passing through one of those points, it would be great...


Unfortunately I routinely (at least weekly) found myself going up to Glasgow at the time, and having to then go on to Aberdeen before I could drive home would have made it an insane choice, wouldn't take too many more stations nationally to make that a "deal with-able" issue... Or an ability to fill up from H2 cylinders (given that there are hundreds of sites across the UK where you can access those mon-sat).

I'm not going to be required to do that routine Glasgow trip going forwards, but will be commuting more in the future, and will likely choose to go over to some kind of H2 vehicle in a year or two (finances allowing).

 

[eribaMotters]

Regarding the earlier mentioned towing of caravans. This a concern as the vehicles that can tow are generally looking at a 750kg limit and obviously a vastly reduced range. We are fortunate in that our van is a lightweight 1200kg but this is still to heavy. We also typically do non stop, 3 return tows of 300 miles each way that do not require a refuel and then 2 tows of up to 600 miles each way that require one short refuel. These are not uncommon events for caravan owners so we have a problem.
One European manufacturer is experimenting with a bank of batteries on the van around the axle, I think set up to drive the caravan wheels and reduce the load on the cars power supply. If they get it to work I'm sure it's going to be expensive.

Coln

 

[Jelly]

Regarding the earlier mentioned towing of caravans. This a concern as the vehicles that can tow are generally looking at a 750kg limit and obviously a vastly reduced range.

If they can't improve on that when it comes to electric vans/commercials, that's going to be a non-starter for the road maintenance and light construction sectors...

It's not too unusual to see a Transit or Daily towing a 2500kg trailer, and I can't see road rollers or mini-diggers magically getting lighter (especially if they too have to be battery powered, which is also coming quickly).

 

[Just4Fun]

This looks interesting but no mention of towin capacity (if any).

 

[Rorschach]

This looks interesting but no mention of towin capacity (if any).

Decent towing capacity is a fair way off for electric vehicles I am afraid. I suspect it's not really a major concern for car manufacturers, the number of drivers who are eligible to actually tow anything sizeable is decreasing every year and ICE vehicles will continue to fulfil that role for a long time yet.

 

[Robbo60]

I have never been in an EV, but as it is direct drive? I am guessing it has no gears? If that is so, is it technically classed as an automatic for driving test purposes? So if you pass your test in one you are not qualified to drive a manual gearbox car.

 

[Rorschach]

I have never been in an EV, but as it is direct drive? I am guessing it has no gears? If that is so, is it technically classed as an automatic for driving test purposes? So if you pass your test in one you are not qualified to drive a manual gearbox car.

From what I have seen they are all automatic, whether that means gears or not doesn't really matter. I am not aware of being able to take a test in an EV yet.

 

[Droogs]

Appatently some driving schools have been teaching in BEVs since 2011 using leafs

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/101039/electric-car-driving-school-learning-to-drive-in-an-ev

 

[Rorschach]

Appatently some driving schools have been teaching in BEVs since 2011 using leafs

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/101039/electric-car-driving-school-learning-to-drive-in-an-ev

Interesting. I wonder how limiting that would be for your license though?

 

[Droogs]

no idea

 

[D_W]

Decent towing capacity is a fair way off for electric vehicles I am afraid. I suspect it's not really a major concern for car manufacturers, the number of drivers who are eligible to actually tow anything sizeable is decreasing every year and ICE vehicles will continue to fulfil that role for a long time yet.

I'd imagine it would be easy to make an EV that could tow a lot, and that the real reason for limited towing is because towing is a huge power suck. If you're driving a pickup truck that gets 17 miles a gallon in the US, but it gets 9 pulling a huge travel trailer, then nobody really cares. If it limits your practical range to 100 miles, then where are you going to go? I think one of the reasons for the long range in tesla's proposed pickup is so that it'll be able to do respectable towing.

 

[D_W]

I have never been in an EV, but as it is direct drive? I am guessing it has no gears? If that is so, is it technically classed as an automatic for driving test purposes? So if you pass your test in one you are not qualified to drive a manual gearbox car.

electric motors have high torque at low speed, so there's no reason to run them through a gearbox to make up for a lack of low rpm torque.

 

[Nick.]

Interesting thread - I'd have gone EV for latest company car, but didn't for two major reasons

1) Cost of lease for a decent one was way way over budget despite looking at the offset vs co. car tax BIK & even if I pay some back.

2) I just can't risk doing the mileage I will be doing again when this is all over (maybe 300 miles a day if needed) then staying overnight with no charging infrastructure. I can't stop 45 mins in a services - I keep overnight costs down so tend to stay away in some cosy rooms over small pubs which suits me, but they don't have charging points. I've stayed at swanky hotels which have tesla parking slots/chargers - but few and far between.

I'm diesel for next 2 years at least as it was a 4 year contract on this car....just need to make up the estimated 60k mileage shortfall so far that we are paying for on this lease...may just jack it up on the driveway and pop it into drive with a brick on the accelerator...

 

[Sachakins]

EV may not be the panacea for cleaning up the air we breathe at all.


Point to note for all vehicle particulate matter emissions, only 10% come from exhausts, the other 90% arrive from wheels, brakes clutches etc.
Interesting 2016 research paper summarised its findings as...



Atmospheric Environment
Volume 134, June 2016, Pages 10-17

Review article
Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles

Highlights

•
A positive relationship exists between vehicle weight and non-exhaust emissions.
•
Electric vehicles are 24% heavier than their conventional counterparts.
•
Electric vehicle PM emissions are comparable to those of conventional vehicles.
•
Non-exhaust sources account for 90% of PM10 and 85% of PM2.5 from traffic.
•
Future policy should focus on reducing vehicle weight.

Abstract
Particulate matter (PM) exposure has been linked to adverse health effects by numerous studies. Therefore, governments have been heavily incentivising the market to switch to electric passenger cars in order to reduce air pollution. However, this literature review suggests that electric vehicles may not reduce levels of PM as much as expected, because of their relatively high weight. By analysing the existing literature on non-exhaust emissions of different vehicle categories, this review found that there is a positive relationship between weight and non-exhaust PM emission factors. In addition, electric vehicles (EVs) were found to be 24% heavier than equivalent internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs). As a result, total PM10 emissions from EVs were found to be equal to those of modern ICEVs. PM2.5 emissions were only 1–3% lower for EVs compared to modern ICEVs. Therefore, it could be concluded that the increased popularity of electric vehicles will likely not have a great effect on PM levels. Non-exhaust emissions already account for over 90% of PM10 and 85% of PM2.5 emissions from traffic. These proportions will continue to increase as exhaust standards improve and average vehicle weight increases. Future policy should consequently focus on setting standards for non-exhaust emissions and encouraging weight reduction of all vehicles to significantly reduce PM emissions from traffic.

Victor R.J.H. Timmers, Peter A.J. Achten
Corrigendum to “Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles” [Atmos. Environ. 134 (June 2016) 10–17]
Atmospheric Environment, Volume 147, December 2016, Pages 492

 

[Jonzjob]

That is a very interesting tit-bit there Sachakins. I wonder why it's not advertised more widely?

May well be something to do with the 'non polluting' aspect of the sales pitch me-thinks

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Particulates are not the only pollution from vehicles - ICE or EV.

Particulates may impact health - gases may impact health and climate.

EV generate no polluting gases at the point of use but total pollution depends on how the electricity is generated.

Overall total pollution may depend on a complex analysis of the relative efficiency of central energy generation (EV) vs distributed energy generation (ICE).

An interesting analysis but only a small part of the story!

 

[Droogs]

EV may not be the panacea for cleaning up the air we breathe at all.


Point to note for all vehicle particulate matter emissions, only 10% come from exhausts, the other 90% arrive from wheels, brakes clutches etc.
Interesting 2016 research paper summarised its findings as...



Atmospheric Environment
Volume 134, June 2016, Pages 10-17

Review article
Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles

Highlights

•
A positive relationship exists between vehicle weight and non-exhaust emissions.
•
Electric vehicles are 24% heavier than their conventional counterparts.
•
Electric vehicle PM emissions are comparable to those of conventional vehicles.
•
Non-exhaust sources account for 90% of PM10 and 85% of PM2.5 from traffic.
•
Future policy should focus on reducing vehicle weight.

Abstract
Particulate matter (PM) exposure has been linked to adverse health effects by numerous studies. Therefore, governments have been heavily incentivising the market to switch to electric passenger cars in order to reduce air pollution. However, this literature review suggests that electric vehicles may not reduce levels of PM as much as expected, because of their relatively high weight. By analysing the existing literature on non-exhaust emissions of different vehicle categories, this review found that there is a positive relationship between weight and non-exhaust PM emission factors. In addition, electric vehicles (EVs) were found to be 24% heavier than equivalent internal combustion engine vehicles (ICEVs). As a result, total PM10 emissions from EVs were found to be equal to those of modern ICEVs. PM2.5 emissions were only 1–3% lower for EVs compared to modern ICEVs. Therefore, it could be concluded that the increased popularity of electric vehicles will likely not have a great effect on PM levels. Non-exhaust emissions already account for over 90% of PM10 and 85% of PM2.5 emissions from traffic. These proportions will continue to increase as exhaust standards improve and average vehicle weight increases. Future policy should consequently focus on setting standards for non-exhaust emissions and encouraging weight reduction of all vehicles to significantly reduce PM emissions from traffic.

Victor R.J.H. Timmers, Peter A.J. Achten
Corrigendum to “Non-exhaust PM emissions from electric vehicles” [Atmos. Environ. 134 (June 2016) 10–17]
Atmospheric Environment, Volume 147, December 2016, Pages 492

Written by someone who does not drive an BEV. Most drivers use regenerative braking, which does not use the brake pads and disks at all. A friend of mine has had a Leaf for 8 years and has covered over 200K and is still on the same brake pads the car came with

 

[Droogs]

Interesting thread - I'd have gone EV for latest company car, but didn't for two major reasons

1) Cost of lease for a decent one was way way over budget despite looking at the offset vs co. car tax BIK & even if I pay some back.

2) I just can't risk doing the mileage I will be doing again when this is all over (maybe 300 miles a day if needed) then staying overnight with no charging infrastructure. I can't stop 45 mins in a services - I keep overnight costs down so tend to stay away in some cosy rooms over small pubs which suits me, but they don't have charging points. I've stayed at swanky hotels which have tesla parking slots/chargers - but few and far between.

I'm diesel for next 2 years at least as it was a 4 year contract on this car....just need to make up the estimated 60k mileage shortfall so far that we are paying for on this lease...may just jack it up on the driveway and pop it into drive with a brick on the accelerator...

and then line shaft it to all the demonstators at the show room and get some wood cut lol