Electric vehicles

[Spectric]

To put in place road charging the government could simply mandate that every electric vehicle is fitted with a GPS tracker chip which monthly takes the appropriate charge from your credit card.

The government could not implement a working test and trace system to help with the pandemic and now is also confused as to vacine passports so what chance is there that an EV track and pay system would ever work.

Also how many people would be jumping up and down and whinging that the system infringes their human rights and civil liberties and that big brother is tracking them.

What is needed as we move forward into the age of electric vehicles, cleaner technology, IOT and green power is a total and complete reset of every aspect of our lives and how decisions are made that effect the population and that is the real challenge facing everyone but holds the key to solving many issues including fair taxation on road usage. The only people who should be concerned are the criminals, illegals and dodgy types who lurk in the shadows as well as people in power who sway towards corruption.

 

[Rorschach]

The government could not implement a working test and trace system to help with the pandemic and now is also confused as to vacine passports so what chance is there that an EV track and pay system would ever work.

Also how many people would be jumping up and down and whinging that the system infringes their human rights and civil liberties and that big brother is tracking them.

What is needed as we move forward into the age of electric vehicles, cleaner technology, IOT and green power is a total and complete reset of every aspect of our lives and how decisions are made that effect the population and that is the real challenge facing everyone but holds the key to solving many issues including fair taxation on road usage. The only people who should be concerned are the criminals, illegals and dodgy types who lurk in the shadows as well as people in power who sway towards corruption.

Just charge on the mileage shown on the vehicle at MOT time. If you want payments inbetween (I doubt yearly MOT's will be needed for EV's) then get people to submit their own numbers as they do with electricity/gas and then get an official inspection at a certain interval.

Fast, easy and just as reliable as any tracking system.

 

[Ozi]

It was introduced in 2017 and initially included electric cars but that was changed after a fuss was made and they are currently exempt however it's a pretty safe bet that will be reintroduced at some stage. There are other exemptions where the Gov did an about turn such as motorhomes which are not available new under the £40k threshold.
The rate btw isn't £400 it's and additional £335 for cars registered this year, ( previously £325) and has to be paid for for 5 years so additional £1675 over that period and the normal tax dependant on emissions etc is on top of that. I.E. my car tax is £150 + 325 = £475 p.a.

As you say they will need to recoup that revenue and when you add in the loss of tax on diesel and petrol sales it leave an enormous black hole to fill. Almost 60p per litre in tax is a **** of a lot to get back somewhere else.

The fairest system would probably be pay by mile but it would be difficult to administer and charging foreign vehicles would be problematic

 

[Rorschach]

The fairest system would probably be pay by mile but it would be difficult to administer and charging foreign vehicles would be problematic

Well we don't really charge foreign vehicles now. Most will fill up with fuel before leaving the continent and unless they are doing long distances here they will have enough to get them back over again.

As I said earlier though, not really complicated or difficult to administer at all. And if you did want to charge foreign vehicles you just log their mileage on entry and again when exiting and charge a fee. I wouldn't bother myself, it isn't a big deal.

 

[baldkev]

Whatever happens I guarantee we will be taxed to death

 

[Ozi]

Ah you have then disabled the beeps then and don't use the heated seats when its 2C outside?

I like most others can park my car fine with no aids because as you so scathingly politely put it, we all learned to drive, but having them just makes life easier, **** they turn on automatically so are you going to the effort to turn them off each time on principal?

A TPMS is very useful WHILE driving, not while it's stationary and can help spot a tyre losing pressure before you utterly annihilate it, potentially leading to a completely ruined tyre or worse an accident. It also doesn't stop the car working if its broken just like the heated sets, cruise control, blind spot detection and everything else that isn't the ECU controlling the actual engine and drivetrain. I can at least understand a desire for a simpler car where you don't even have that. Sadly they aren't terribly common any more, in part becase they oft make the Bugatti Veryon fuel economy look quite frugal.

I entirely agree on the Skodas. Had an Octavia Hatch before this Superb Estate. It's had 50,000 on it from me in 3 years since I got it 3 months old.


There is no need to scrap the entire car because the battery is degraded. Manufacturers will (have to) have programs in place.

There is a scheme in Germany where the batteries are effectively rented. When they get degraded beyond automotive use they are repackaged into a unit about the size of a washing machine and installed in peoples houses. Usually in combination with solar panels but charged from the grid when cost is low, used to sell back to the grid if demand spikes. One battery I worked with gave a peak output of 127amps when new, if that drops below 100 amps it's had it for the car but for domestic use it's more than plenty. The things that kill batteries are rapid charge and discharge, vibration and temperature cycles, none of which matter if it's under the stairs. Last I heard and this is a few years out of date 20,000 units were in use in Germany. In this country 0.6% of our electricity supply has been returned from storage of some form, this needs to increase dramatically we have times when the commercial price of wind energy goes negative being able to store it either in batteries or as hydrogen will help us overcome our addiction to gas.

Sorry climbs off soap box

 

[Ozi]

Well we don't really charge foreign vehicles now. Most will fill up with fuel before leaving the continent and unless they are doing long distances here they will have enough to get them back over again.

As I said earlier though, not really complicated or difficult to administer at all. And if you did want to charge foreign vehicles you just log their mileage on entry and again when exiting and charge a fee. I wouldn't bother myself, it isn't a big deal.

I don't have facts to back this up but I suspect it is quite a big deal and would become one if vehicles could be registered abroad. There are a lot of foreign lorries on our roads and heavy vehicles do a disproportionate amount of damage. As I say just my opinion but we could end up with all lorries run under a "flag of convenience" from somewhere like Luxembourg. Going away to read my Daily Mail till I feel better.

 

[Rorschach]

I don't have facts to back this up but I suspect it is quite a big deal and would become one if vehicles could be registered abroad. There are a lot of foreign lorries on our roads and heavy vehicles do a disproportionate amount of damage. As I say just my opinion but we could end up with all lorries run under a "flag of convenience" from somewhere like Luxembourg. Going away to read my Daily Mail till I feel better.

If that was an issue like you mention then I agree a new system would need to be used, such as my suggested logging of mileage at the border crossing.

 

[Jameshow]

Smart motorways (dumb name) won't in themselves be able to be used as a charging system. What will be used is the ever expanding current network of ANPR (automatic number plate recognition) cameras. These have been touted as a crime prevention tool. But if you look around, there are more and more of them situated at the motorway slip roads, at major routes into and out of cities and towns, on bridges, tunnels and throughout the major .uk non motorway network.
The use of ANPR is being trialled on major Toll roads, M6 toll, Runcorn Widnes bridge, congestion charge areas, clean air initiatives areas. etc.
Vehicle registration marks are read automatically, and you are invoiced instantly, and paid automatically if you have a bank direct debit.

It's not beyond the realms of feasibility to quickly expand this technology for charging for vehicle excise duty by mileage and usage. So every vehicle will pay, and some more than others too.

Don't the motorways on the continent use a transponder and reader in an overhead gantry so that as the car passes under the gantry the car is clicked and charged? Same at the TAG system here in UK???

Cheers James

 

[AES]

Don't the motorways on the continent use a transponder and reader in an overhead gantry so that as the car passes under the gantry the car is clicked and charged? Same at the TAG system here in UK???

Cheers James

Well, they don't here (Switzerland), nor, as of late last year (last time I was diving over the borders) , do they in Austria, France Italy & Germany! Note please I'm talking about private cars ("PKW") in German, NOT trucks ("LKW") in German.

Where did you get the above idea from?

 

[Wildman]

whatever they darn well please; given that Road tax was abolished in the 1970's and extra duty added to fuel instead so the heaviest users paid the most. Road tax was around £250 by then and too expencive for a lot of people so they dodged it, it was replaced with a £5 charge for checking your ins and MOT were in order, of course that was soon forgotten by successive governments, that charge should have been removed as well because now those checks are done by computer automatically. Ha Ha Ha Ha and look where it is back to now, it wasn't me mate it was some other government, nowt to do with me.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

An automated web based system for charging road use by time, road, vehicle size is entirely feasible. Utility companies have been doing it for years - as do banks, online shopping, phone companies, netflix etc etc.

Whether UK Government can implement such a system is another matter - but after her outstanding performance in T&T, Dido Harding may not be the right candidate to lead the initiative.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Surely there will be an app for this: real time gps tracking of the vehicle, plus identities of the passengers. Reason for travel needs to be logged before departure, and a limit to the length of time you are allowed to be out. Also a limit to the distance travelled.

Madness? Those are exactly the rules I have to comply with every time I leave the house (I circumvent the gps tracking by not having a smart phone, but the rest of it is unavoidable). No reason not to expand it to all people, all the time, because climate change, obviously.

 

[Jameshow]

Well, they don't here (Switzerland), nor, as of late last year (last time I was diving over the borders) , do they in Austria, France Italy & Germany! Note please I'm talking about private cars ("PKW") in German, NOT trucks ("LKW") in German.

Where did you get the above idea from?

https://www.telepeagelibert.com/A system like this??

I'm not an expert but I have my suspicions that the smart infrastructure might be used for charging down the line.

Cheers James

 

[francovendee]

Anything that is good for the environment gets the thumbs up and EV's seem to offer reduced emissions if the energy it 'clean'.
How we get around those people who need a car, have no off street parking and have very small budgets. You could say they need to take public transport and I'm sure many do. The problem lies with people, who because of the hours they work, lack of or cost of public transport, don't have this option.
Until I've seen how EV's last then I'd be very wary of buying used.
I believe with batteries it's not the age but the number of time they are charged that reduces capacity?
I believe there is a way you can run diagnostics to show this but I've also heard this can be 'clocked' by a criminal.
The people who have already bought an EV are trail blazers for the rest of us and should be applauded.

 

[Blackswanwood]

It is interesting how this may play out - I think it will however be a very different landscape in five years.

The demographic of this forum is arguably not representative of the population as a whole so arguably there may be many of us who don’t follow what will be the norm. I guess most of us “like” owning a car and it’s more than a functional item. While undoubtedly there are car enthusiasts of all ages I also think the “younger generations“ have a different outlook.

I think personal car ownership will reduce massively When you need a car it will be rented and be driverless. At first it sounds wacky but the benefits are significant. I don’t need tie up a lump of capital in ownership and pay as I go. The car that turns up will be the right size. Tax can be collected easily and fairly. For longer journeys where range is an issue recharging can be scheduled therefore more convenient.

I can come up with many “ah but” objections to my own hypothesis but they all stem from me having become conditioned to like owning an ICE car.

 

[AES]

https://www.telepeagelibert.com/A system like this??

I'm not an expert but I have my suspicions that the smart infrastructure might be used for charging down the line.

Cheers James

Oh. My French is pretty bad, but I see that your clip is talking about the "Peage". That's the motorway system in France which you have to pay to use. You either collect a ticket from the booth where you enter the system and show the ticket - and pay of course - where you leave the system, or, just as you say, you can pre-pay, which apparently gives you some sort of sticker to put on the windscreen which is read by a camera and you are charged accordingly. I'm not sure about the details of the pre-pay system (never done that) but there are 2 points here: 1). You have to pass through the same booth/s as everyone else for your sticker to be read, and 2). Somehow, I'm not sure how, you have to go "somewhere" to buy the pre-paid sticker, so obviously only of use to and interesting for "locals" whom, I guess, make the same journey each day.

So apart from the actual charging James, it's not exactly the fully automated system you previous post suggested - though I agree, it could become that "one day"!!!

A couple of other observations if I may:

With the French Peage system there is, AFAIK, always an alternative not chargeable road system. Certainly I've always seen signs saying "non-Peage this way";

A similar system also works in Italy, and with the same limitations, but I THINK, often without the alternative non-payment routes;

A similar system also exists in UK in places, e.g. the Dartford Tunnel (M25), and also a stretch of motorway somewhere in the Midlands (I forget where, sorry). But similar "problems" as those above exist presently.

In addition, the UK system suffers hugely that all the booths I've seen are ALL for drivers of RH drive vehicles which is a real traffic slower for drivers of LH drive vehicles who are on their own - DAMHIKT! AND precisely the same limitations, but in mirror image, exists with ALL the booths I've used in France and Italy. "Daft" (i.e. lack of thought and sensible pre-planning).

So with respect, I think your previous post which at least to me suggested that "everything is all automatic and is all over Europe" was at best somewhat misleading. But I agree, it COULD become what you suggest ("one of these fine wet days")!

At just coming up to 76 years old I doubt that I'll ever live to see that though.

 

[Just4Fun]

I can come up with many “ah but” objections to my own hypothesis but they all stem from me having become conditioned to like owning an ICE car.

I can come up with many "ah but" objections which apply both to those who like owning a car and those who hate cars. For example your scenario might be a real pain for someone who lives in the middle of nowhere. The on-demand car might have to travel more miles to get to & from that person than the miles that person wants to travel.

I think you probably hit the nail on the head when you said " personal car ownership will reduce massively", which could well be true, but personal car ownership is unlikely to disappear altogether any time soon. Many (most?) people couple probably accept or even welcome easy rental of a car on demand, but I believe it would be unrealistic to try and apply that model to everyone.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

I agree that many will not be prepared to sacrifice their transport independence. I also wonder what pricing model will be adopted.

A price per journey will seem high compared to car ownership where the immediate variable cost is the fuel. A bit like a pay as you go phone!

Or a monthly miles contract option - pay £200 per month and get 500 miles. Unused balance to be rolled over?

My local council have invested in a trial of electric scooters. Once registered, it costs £1 to unlock + 10p a minute. They are being used extensively as the bays in which they are parked are often empty - they are certainly more flexible than buses and probably cheaper.

This may be a model for in town/city rentals where small 2 seater modules with limited range and performance will be available for low cost rental (possibly driverless) on a similarly simple basis.

 

[D_W]

in cities in the US, we have rental cars (for profit) - but not typical rental cars, rather app checkable cars rentable by the hour. I have no idea what they cover as we use one car generally and have 2.

The other initiatives, like making bikes and scooters available end up being sponsored, the figure that they cost isn't profitable, but they fail. I'm not sure what the rental costs are for the bikes, but I doubt anyone cares what they are - people will either pay, or not pay. I don't think they'll care if they're paying half of actual costs.

In the future, cars will be dialed up by app because it'll be cheaper for the end user and profitable for someone who owns the car. I don't think any level of government is going to like it very much unless they can figure out how to tax the rubbish out of the autonomous cars, as they do spend a lot on roads here (and probably there, too), but registration and license for cars here costs us a minimum of about $60 a year. that's not much money, but when you register 4 million cars, it's $240MM, and you need those bad drivers on the road to generate ticket revenue and parking ticket revenue, and parking revenue.

We'll see how that goes.

For all of the range anxiety above, I know a couple of people who have one PHEV and one EV, and I've never heard them complain about range limitation. What happens with them is they drive the PHEV or EV for short trips, the EV for intermediate trips and back to the PHEV for long trips. It's a bit offputting, though, as when they come to town, they will ask if we have a 220V pigtail to run out of the garage and expect to charge for free, despite being in a car that will run fine on gas until they get home. Fortunately, I don't have any such pigtail in the garage.

The PHEV and EV together were $90k. comparable cars in non PHEV or EV would've been about 73k. There's no way they'll save that amount in fuel with the low costs in the US, but I guess that's not the point.

Once the cars are autonomous, they'll go off service and charge, and the battery size will probably be based more on expected mileage lifetime (e.g, the tesla trucks' assumption that 90% charge capacity is end of life, and it will get there in 1000 charges with a typical range of 500 or so - 500k miles). I'd imagine autonomous cars will be able to manage charge life of batteries better if there's an incentive to do it (they'll be able to stay in some specific range - and batteries may be sodium based by then instead of lithium. who knows).