Difference between block and timber frame

[crazylilting]

I've noticed that a lot of buildings here in the UK are block work. Is this a cost cutting measure or am i missing something? The only block work houses or buildings i've seen were either commercial or the doing of some madman in Canada. However they have been using insulated blocks for some time which look great.

My shop is block work to, but i'd prefer a timber framed shop. I may change it at some point by doing a wall at a time, but i'm not so sure i can justify the cost.

So is block work better?

I've also noticed a difference in the roofing timber frames. Meaning exposed timber framed roofs. I'm trying to understand the differences. Is it that timber hasn't been available or it is just the traditional way of doing things? Resistant to change or better or new ideas?

What's your thoughts

 

[wizer]

Hey CT, can I make a suggestion. You seem to be missing your homeland. Nothing over here seems good enough. Why not, you know, go back there? :lol: :duno:

 

[RogerS]

Seconded.

 

[Smudger]

I like the idea that timber hasn't been available in the UK. We've spent the last 10,000 years trying to get rid of the stuff! It's just a big weed!

 

[wizer]

I'm sure Mike G will be along soon to extol the virtues of timber framed buildings.

To be fair. I'm interested in the answer to the question.

 

[Tom K]

It mostly comes down to banks and insurance companies.
They dont like lending unless its "standard" construction and the insurance was heavily loaded because of the fire risk.
C.L you seem to put across a view that the Brits don't know how to build.
What you should remember is we reckon we are the absolute dog's and built every thing in the world thats worth a toss.

 

[MikeG.]

I'm sure Mike G will be along soon to extol the virtues of timber framed buildings.

To be fair. I'm interested in the answer to the question.

Not sure if I can drag up the enthusiasm to write another essay just at the moment......

......I'm in the middle of designing an oak framed building. My next job has walls made of old car tyres, and straw bales for insulation. Old CL will have views on those, methinks!

Mike

 

[Smudger]

It mostly comes down to banks and insurance companies.
They dont like lending unless its "standard" construction and the insurance was heavily loaded because of the fire risk.
C.L you seem to put across a view that the Brits don't know how to build.
What you should remember is we reckon we are the absolute dog's and built every thing in the world thats worth a toss.

That's what I read (well, saw in a TV documentary) - and also that building the new towns for the Industrial Revolution meant using mass-produced materials, which meant brick, and then block came along as a cheaper and easier solution.

Mind you, whoever built my garden wall (c1900) wasn't the dog's bols - he was just bols.

My workshed at the moment is just that - a 10x10 shed. I often fantasise about rebuilding it in block. Much more permanent, easier to insulate etc - but then how long am I going to be woodworking for anyway?

 

[crazylilting]

I think most of you are missing the point. There are a lot of good points to both sides of the world. When i was in Canada I imported many things from Europe that the north americans didn't seem to have a grasp on so why would it be different here?

Things are not perfect here nor are they in canada. That aside the thread question is very clear if you put your assumptions aside.

Mike,
I think tyre construction and straw building is the way forward. So again you have the wrong assumptions as the rest.

The comment about insurance companies seems to be the only comment which is on topic and has merit. The same problem existed in canada when it came to unconventional buildings as well. But timber frame seems to be a well proven technique all over the world so i thought it would of had to be a different reason.

We want to build an eco house at some point thus the inquire. Just because I want a door handle that is better then what is offered in this country and would like a higher spec plywood then the Uk offers does not make me anti UK. I really wasn't expecting the responses i got but if you can look at the topic and put aside your assumptions and have a proper dialog on perhaps we both can learn something???? who knows. perhaps it's just better to be a lurker

 

[wizer]

You also need to learn the British 'sense of humour'

 

[crazylilting]

Being a bit aspergers also has no nationality. So most peoples humour is wasted on me. But the replies don't have any hint of humour and feel hostile.

 

[woodbloke]

You also need to learn the British 'sense of humour'

...especially SWIMBO's, which in my case, is sadly missing, 'specially if it's anything to do with the 'shop :lol: - Rob

 

[Jake]

Historically, timber framed housing was commonplace. We moved on, and have yet to move back (although it's happening slowly). The Great Fire of London probably had a lot to do with it - timber framed building was completely banned in London (at least) after that.

Masonry is self-evidently a more solid and substantial way of building, and that appeals to the house-buyer's psyche. We are used to and like to think of buildings as things which will be around for centuries, not decades (even if that isn't true). Even if it isn't fair (especially in the case of an oak frame), the perception of timber framed buildings is that on that scale at least, they are a bit more temporary. Of course this is all a bit ridiculous when looking at the average Barrett or Wimpey home which are not exactly designed for posterity and longevity.

Things are changing, mostly due to the relative difficulties of incorporating thick insulation in masonry construction compared to timber frame, and a shift in the construction industry towards trying to reduce wet trades on site (delay while things dry out and the cost of labour). Timber is also more suited to factory unit production.

I don't think there are any difficulties insuring timber framed buildings these days.

Absent a concern for insulation and wall thickness, I'd prefer a masonry wall to a timber frame wall - probably for no better reason than an emotional attachment to its reassuring solidity.

I didn't understand what you meant about the way roofs are framed.

 

[MikeG.]

CL,

whatever you read into my posting, don't assume that I am being negative. When I said you would have views it is because you usually do........I wasn't assuming you would be negative about the tyre construction.

We have been timber framing in this country for thousands of years. I am off in a minute to see a timber building built in about 1330. In my view, buildings are at their very best when they are "of and from" an area....ie using the local materials in a local style. Too much modern building (housing in particular) is homogenised.......it could come from virtually anywhere. You have to look around here and ask how much pinewood we grow......tiny amounts compared with Canada, and therein lies the answer to your question.

CL, as it happens, I am one of the country's leading experts on low energy housing. Canada has a lot to offer us (I'm thinking of the low-energy scheme called something like Canada 2000, for instance). I have built some of the best performing houses ever in this country, and have come to quite an interesting view........

I reckon that we do modern timber framing wrong, here, and in the rest of the world. I now routinely build the timber frame external to a heavyweight blockwork inner skin......inside-out timber framing, if you like. This enables one to have masses of insulation outside a large thermal mass. This combination smoothes out the rapid heat gains and losses that are typical of lightweight (timber frame) construction.

I have built super-insulated houses side-by-side, one heavyweight, one lightweight.....both with triople glazing and mechanical ventilation systems with heat recovery, underfloor heating, and south-facing solar space. The heavyweight house way out-performs the lighter one (but of course, has a much higher embodied energy content to start with).

Right.....I must run. Built in 1330.......should last at least until 2330. I love oak frames!

Mike

 

[big soft moose]

Being a bit aspergers also has no nationality. So most peoples humour is wasted on me. But the replies don't have any hint of humour and feel hostile.

that might be because of the hostility you sometimes display - for example on the other thread you ripped into jake who was just trying to help you, and you were pretty short and impolite with me on that thread too. I realise that can be a symptom of aspergers too but it is a common fact of life that you get what you give.

On the topic at hand its worth noting that timber frame houses didnt develop in the new world - there were oak frames being built in the UK (and europe for that matter) when the new world was still home only to amerindian and inuit tribes.

the settlers principally from the UK and france who went out there took the building technology with them - it persisted in the new world particularly the northern areas because of the easy availability of lumber wheras in the UK we moved away from timber framing for mass housing because our woodlands are much more of a finite resource.

personally I fully intend to build a timber frame eco house once swimbo and i can find a plot and get the cash together but this is likely to be inspired by traditional UK oak framing like that used in Cruck barns etc not the mass produced timber frames now being used in canada and the usa.

 

[wizer]

Mike I really like that idea of inside out timber framing. It really makes sense. I'd love to build my own home one day. I really feel that traditional, common suburban homes built around the 30's-50's are just oppressive blocks of nothingness.

 

[big soft moose]

have come to quite an interesting view........

I reckon that we do modern timber framing wrong, here, and in the rest of the world. I now routinely build the timber frame external to a heavyweight blockwork inner skin......inside-out timber framing, if you like. This enables one to have masses of insulation outside a large thermal mass.

in an eco build isnt using lots of concrete anti ethical tho (as concrete production is one of the main emmiters of co2) , my "plan" - tho dream is a closer definition - is to build a oak timber frame and insulate with straw bales inside a weatherproof outer cladding.

 

[MikeG.]

I'm back.....and yep, they really knew what they were doing with timber framing in 1330!

BSM,

you are dead right about concrete. My ideal inner skin material would be stone, with a lime mortar.....and in areas with lots of stone that is perfectly feasible. I have done a number of Limecrete floors too. An alternative, in areas (such as where I live) without stone, but with high clay content to the soils, is rammed earth/ cob/ air-dried blocks........but whatever thermal store is chosen, it must be heavy.

I have done a number of successful straw bale buildings, and they would make a wonderful home........it's just that you are losing an awful lot of expensive land within the thickness of those walls. When you've paid a quarter of a million for your site alone most people want to get as much house as they can for their money.

Back to the main topic........Jake answered this pretty thoroughly. All I would add is that cost, and a certain amount of inertia, are the main reasons for the popularity of blockwork.

Mike



Crazylilting,

Asperger's or not (and I have family experience of A.S), you would benefit from just drawing breath between the end of typing and pressing the submit button. You often come across quite harshly, a little dismissive of other people's view. We welcome a lively discourse here, but do also try and get on with each other. Please don't go off in a huff and become just a lurker.........but do try and mellow the tone occasionally.

 

[aesmith]

I can't understand the original post, unless building is very different where he lives. Around here timber frame is just about universal for new buildings, especially houses. Maybe that fact that block or brickwork is used outside the timber has misled him.

Personally my favourite is cavity walls, as used in the '50s and '60s. That gives the sort of solid build you want in a house, still with decent insulation. The only disadvantage is that the house takes a long time to warm up if its allowed to cool right down, as the inner masonry is all inside the insulation.

 

[MikeG.]

Personally my favourite is cavity walls, as used in the '50s and '60s. That gives the sort of solid build you want in a house, still with decent insulation. The only disadvantage is that the house takes a long time to warm up if its allowed to cool right down, as the inner masonry is all inside the insulation.

Well, the main disadvantage is that you are missing out on an extra 4 or 6 inches of insulation that you could fit in the same wall thickness with a timber frame.

Read my earlier post on the advantages of a masonry skin inside insulation. My houses typically have 250mm of insulation in the walls......and that isn't possible with "traditional" masonry cavity construction.

Mike