CS & Guide or Table Saw?

[ByronBlack]

Paul

That is a nice and cheap way of avoiding the offset, shame I didn't think of that when I was struggling with my old one ;-)

 

[Scrit]

Hi Byron

I have to say that I'm in complete agreement with Alf on this one. A "system" comprises a straight piece of 3 x 2 PAR pine screwed to an 8ft x 12inch piece of 1/4in or 3/8in birch plywood. First cut you make gives you the register edge and it is almost zero tolerance. Edge chips out? No expensive rubber strip to replace - just unscrew the plywood and move across a few millimetre then trim. There are only a few disadvantages - this "system won't joint together (although with a bit of ingenuity....) and an 8 ft long "rail" is too big to go in all but the longest estate car - the reason I bought my Bosch system was that I didn't have a van at the time and I needed something to do plywood flooring which would go into the car.

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit,

unless you have a really good saw with zero-clearance plate and a good blade, i'm doubtfull a home-brew would give adequate comparable results. Well i'm talking from my own personal experiances here.

The other negative I see is that wood moves, so how long will the straight edge remain perfectly straight as oppposed to anodised alluminium?

Also, would you need a seperate guide rail to make bevel cuts?

The saw also runs 'against' the guide as opposed across the top of the commercial ones, which means one more thing to worry about when ripping a long sheet.

I guess at the end of the day, each person needs to find a system that is suitable to them. Personaly I don't feel a home-made guide will give comparable results and be as functional as a commercial one, and the prices for a commercial guide aren't bank breaking, so for me, it makes sense to go for an EZ or Festool if your cutting a large amount of sheet material.

 

[Scrit]

Unless you have a really good saw with zero-clearance plate and a good blade, I'm doubtfull a home-brew would give adequate comparable results.

The fact of the matter is that many of the cuts we do as woodworkers are only seen from one side, or get covered-up by something else such as a moulding. That makes having the "perfect" cut both sides less of an issue, IMHO. Having an appropriate blade on a portable saw which doesn't suffer from much run-out is a given - my old "system" used an Elu MH82 fitted with a Freud 60 tooth ATB blade and that gave an almost chip free cut on the underside of the sheet. Providing the blade is shatp and I'm not trying to push it too fast the rip isn't bad either. The pressure of a piece of relatively solid birch plywood almost rubbing against the blade is almost as good as the zero clearance nose piece on the Festool saw, but on those rare occassions (from experience) that you absolutely need to have both sides perfect the plywood base is unscrewed, shunted across a bit asnd reattached so that you are cutting both the plywood and your sheet material as one. This way you get the same effect as a zero clearance insert. I suspect that very few people lose any sleep about having zero clearance plates on their table saws (apart from some of the "accuracy obsessives" I come across on some American fora) - I wonder why not?

If you want a zero-clearance plate on a cheap portable circular saw the solution is easy enough. Get yourself a piece of HDPE (high density polyethylene otherwise called UHMW) or Tufnol (or even a bit of birch ply!), screw it to the bottom of the saw then gently plunge through - hey presto! Zero clearance saw base. Works for routers, too. In that case your "straight edge" doesn't need the plywood tacking onto it at all, although you'll need to calculate the blade offset......

As an aside the Bosch system I have doesn't use a zero clearance plate, neither did the late deWalt system, nor the Mafell systems. Similarly they don't require a new insert every time you change the depth of cut on your saw........

The other negative I see is that wood moves, so how long will the straight edge remain perfectly straight as oppposed to anodised alluminium?

If you are concerned about the wooden batten moving then use an MFC batten with a laminate face - that's pretty stable - or what about using a piece of aluminium extrusion such as the 20/20 machine construtor profile. It does beg the questions "Just how damp does your workshop get?" and "What do you do with your timber stash if your tools (such as squares, marking gauges, wooden planes, workbench, etc) are all going wonky?"

Also, would you need a seperate guide rail to make bevel cuts?

Exactly how often do you actually do this? (Make a bevel cut in sheet stock that is) You can just screw on another of plywood (to yout batten) to handle this. I've heard this argument repeated many times, but how many people here use bevel joints on sheet materials as the norm?. And when they do how do they join them? Biscuits, dowels? I'd say that for every bevel rip I do there will be a couple of hundred straight cuts.

The saw also runs 'against' the guide as opposed across the top of the commercial ones, which means one more thing to worry about when ripping a long sheet.

When you rip material on a table saw there is a need to apply a slight amount of side pressure (work against rip fence) at the same time as you feed. Yes it takes a bit more adeptness, though not as much as learning how to change gear seemlessly in a car - but millions of woodworkers have mastered ripping on the table saw over the years without too many problems, so I don't see the problem. Oh, it takes a little more care, but isn't woodworking partly the "craftsmanship of risk" when all said and done?.

.....so for me, it makes sense to go for an EZ or Festool if your cutting a large amount of sheet material.

Ah, but "large" is a relative term, I feel. If I had to cut a "large" amount of sheet material with a rail system on a regular patience I think I'd end up throwing it through the window!

It's not that I have anything against the Festool system (other than its cost :lol: ), it's just that there's always half a dozen or more ways to achieve anything in woodworking without breaking the bank :wink: .

Scrit

 

[Alf]

Byron, I fully understood you wanted the all-singing, all-dancing version - right up until you started in on making a rip off of part of the EZ system. I assumed we must have fallen off onto another page entirely. If you want the repeater whatsit why not buy the system that has it? If money's the problem, why not go the whole hog and save it all? I dunno, I suppose it just comes across as a bit of a mixed message.

Cheers, Alf

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit

Thanks for the detailed reply, I have arguments for most of your points, but I feel I would be going over old ground. All I need to say really is that using a Table saw for ripping sheet material is not suitable for a lot of people, the guide rail and CS does the job quickly, safely, to a high standard and using a lot less space.

At the end of the day, a guide rail and saw is a lot cheaper than a good TS and Panel saw, and I beleive the commercial guide's offer much better value in terms of use and performance over a home-made one.

ALF,

The reasons for me not getting the EZ was in my previous post, it's not just the cost of it comapred to a the festool, it's the support, the saw and the guarentee that I prefer on the festool. I see making a repeater arm a fairly straight-forward jig.

If I made my own pocket-hole jig, are you saying I should pay £100 for the full monty kreg version?

I don't really understand your argument.

As for my message being mixed, I don't really get that, the festool doesn't come with a repeater arm, yet it's a relateively easy modification, why should that mean that I go for the EZ despite my other reasons?

I think my message is that the Festool offers the buyer a better customer experience, tighter saw integration (and other tools), but there's nothing stopping soemone from adding their own jigs and fixtures to it.

 

[Alf]

Oh never mind. I just hope Dino's pleased you like his product enough to copy it, but not to buy it. All hail Festool. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

 

[ByronBlack]

Alf

Your attitude is of someone who has never made a Jig based on a commercial product, which i'm sure is not the case.

 

[engineer one]

have read byrons comments with interest, but i'm with alf and scrit.

the main problem with any ANY guide system is making it fit the
lines, and holding it in place whilst you use the saw, and forcing the saw along any system gives sideways momentum. festo in fact recommend
that you use the clamps at either end of the rail to ensure accuracy, and as we have seen joining their rails has some problems for some people.

to most people the problem is ensuring that you measure the offset correctly and keep the blade straight. using mfc or mdf to produce a
fenced guide is almost as stable as aluminium. indeed in view of some
of the honeycomb ally i have seen, i wonder whether it might not
be more accurate.

on any system that cuts 8 feet that relies upon a man pushing the saw
you need to change position at least three times. with any system that just relies upon "gravity" rubber backing, rather than fixing clamps you can
get some problems with accuracy.

having used both the scrit and alf method, as well as the mafell and festo ones, i think the advantage of the metal ones is that you tend not to abuse the rails in the same way as you would a piece of wood lying around in your workshop.

where all the major manufacturers systems fail at this time is when moving across a sheet for repeat cuts at the same width, and this i believe
dino has an answer too. mafell have a newer saw which has a right angle attachment which allows cross cuts up to 18 inches 400 mm,
and i believe that this could be adapted as a repeat spacer, but you are still dependant upon your blade staying sharp and properly set for many cuts. if you are lipping things, then break out is not as important as it might sound, and i have not had much on any of my saws.

break out is caused mainly by too much blade showing under the cut
as well as using the wrong blade for the job, which we all through laziness
tend to do.

i understand where you are coming from byron, but as an engineer i must say that parts of your reasons are specious.

but then we all make the choice of how to spend our own money. :twisted:

paul :wink:

 

[Jake]

Oh never mind. I just hope Dino's pleased you like his product enough to copy it, but not to buy it. All hail Festool. :roll:

Cheers, Alf

Well, Dino was obviously impressed enough with the Festool guide rail for it to inspire him, so what goes around, comes around I guess.

 

[Shady]

When you are sawing flooring sheets in situ with a 12 foot drop one side of where you are working it is useful to have one less thing to be concerned about!

And that, for me, after about ten years of using my shop made guides, was why I bought the EZ guide... It is nicely thought out: the clamp system is quick to adjust, and will not get in the way of your saw - which was one of the biggest problems for me with a shop made guide. The aluminium is 'always' straight - bits of wood never gave me that confidence. You just don't have the faff, fiddle and need to hope it all works that I used to have.

It just 'does what it says', simply, quickly and effectively. Put it this way - search the forums for the revelatory, 'scales dropped from my eyes' comments from the owners of the Festool system. The EZ guide is the same. Either is a significant step up for anyone who wants to cut sheet goods. I say this as the original cheapskate.

 

[ByronBlack]

Paul

Adding a clamps to the EZ or festool is a pretty straight forward process, so I don't really understand your point regarding that.

As for changing position three times, I can't see that myself, could you not once the guide is clamped stand to the back and right of the saw and walk down the guide with it?

 

[Scrit]

Festo in fact recommend that you use the clamps at either end of the rail to ensure accuracy

You've also got to keep the sheet you are sawing flat as well because not doing so can result in a slightly bowed "straight" edge.

On any system that cuts 8 feet that relies upon a man pushing the saw you need to change position at least three times. With any system that just relies upon "gravity" rubber backing, rather than fixing clamps you can get some problems with accuracy.

I also suspect that a thin ally guide extrusion can bow in the length - somewhat more than timber does - and that the rubber strip won't stop it

Does that sound like I'm anti-rail? Not at all. But I just don't think they're the all singing all dancing solution to everything that their advertisers would have you believe. :shock:

As for changing position three times, I can't see that myself, could you not once the guide is clamped stand to the back and right of the saw and walk down the guide with it?

I think that you might be in for an awakening here. You have to push the saw through the timber - it doesn't glide - and the rail seems to add friction to the whole process a little bit rather than reduce it. Another reason I favourthe rable saw - better ergonomics and less strain on my back!

Scrit

 

[ByronBlack]

Scrit

One of the things tha Dino always expresses is the need for solid support no matter what guide system is used, so I have to agree with you that an ally rail needs support, but then thats just good safety practice anyway. I wouldn't want to try and rip or crosscut or a sheet without a sturdy support.

A table saw isn't always practicle though scrit, so i'm afraid i'm definitly tied to a rail system for my needs, also I don't fancy much trying to feed an 8x4 sheet into a table saw, much prefer to move a tool across it.

 

[engineer one]

byron i understand your comments about changing position,
but even cross wise on a 4ft sheet i have to change my
hand position with the mafell rail, and obviously the width of
the cut from the edge has some bearing on the situation too.

but hey its your dosh, and you have to be happy.
good luck

paul :wink:

 

[cumbrian]

Gents - thanks for the input re router use with the Festool.
Harking back to the repeater jig, it occurred to me to wonder why Festool don't have one in their system - any thoughts? Anyone asked them?

Possible answers:
You don't need it.
It's easy to make one yourself. Hmmm
We're the Big Boys and aren't influenced to change our products by lesser imitators (AKA IBM syndrome.)
That's a really good idea and we're on the case.

 

[ByronBlack]

cumbrian

after talking to some knowledgable chaps today, it seems that festool don't do a repeater arm because they don't see it as a viable addition, basically because on long cross cuts and rip cuts, the longer rail is more difficult to keep straight via a repeater arm at the base of the unit - a 1mm difference at the beginning of the rail could end up 5mm or at the end.

However, Lynx has got good results with his own home made one, so that leads me to the conclusion that festool don't see it as a big feature that is required.

I've ordered my Ts55 kit today (will arrive on wed), and on advice from the salesman I didn't bother getting the angle guide or a shorter rail as he used just the parts that come with the Ts55 kit to make his built-in wardrobe suite (which is one of my next jobs) and didn't find a need for the angle-guide or a reapeter arm.

I'll post my findings and experiences of the saw as I use it. Also of note, I also purchased a Kreg Jig kit.

I can definitly recommend the guy's at Jaycee tools in middlesex, the guy I spoke too, Andrew was exceptionally helpful and spent a good 35mins this morning answering questions and going through some tips on getting the best out of the festool and kreg - top guy and amazingly good service.

Also, he was mentioning that they are working on a non-sales website called 'festool fanatics' where they will have tips, reviews, studies, and various resources on festool gear.

 

[engineer one]

byron glad you got things sorted, and my mates at jaycee were
so good to you. although i didn't suggest you go there, i am glad that
their service was so good because they really are to my mind an
old fashioned service company which in these days is quite difficult
to get too often.

they offer fair prices, and a backup, including knowledge, and
try to be helpful. indeed it was andrew on a ts55 who cut the
cherry which i posted earlier in the year.

always a good thing to compliment those traders who go that
extra foot or too.

paul :wink:

 

[cumbrian]

Byron - thanks for the information. I can see that only having a repeater to align one end of a long rail is asking for trouble.
I'm wondering if the simplest form of repeater (for a specific job, rather than universal) is the work itself. Suppose you're looking to cut a number of lengths at say 600mm wide. Having made the first, you lay the resulting board on the sheet stock and line up the edges, then line up the edge of the rail with the board (maybe clamp the rail to ensure it doesn't move at the next stage). Remove the first board (storyboard??) and make the cut. Repeat, repeat etc.
Sounds simple in theory, so what have I missed??

 

[engineer one]

basically you have to allow for the width of the cut.
in practice, every time you line up the board, you seem to
add to the width. something about visual lining up i think.

to check this out, try it with a thinnish piece of cardboard.
you will be surprised by how quickly you go out of whack

paul :wink: