Cost of scary sharp method long term ? - sharpening again!

[mr]

I've just tried the scary sharp method yesterday after always having used and hated waterstones 'til now. I was amazed at the result from the wet n dry - far better result than from the waterstones, the blade I tried it on is as new again. The reason I tried it was that I had a fairly hefty nick out of the edge of the Low angle jack blade, when this has happened before its always taken me a couple of hours on my 800 grit Ice Bear stone. Yesterday using 180 and then 240 grit wet & dry I was done in about 20 minutes. Obviously some fairly major shaping which used up several sheets of paper. My dislike of the waterstones stems partly from the mess and the need to keep flattening but also from the amount of effort required to get anywhere near sharp. They just don't seem to do it for me, so Ive been thinking about an investment in diamonds stones which as I understand dont need flattening and aren't so messy. Then I tried the scary sharp thing and thats the result I'm looking for (or better). No fuss no muss and a blade to split atoms with. My question is whether the cost is going to be ridiculously high on an ongoing basis. at £3 or so a pack from the local car emporium or £15 for something like 70 sheets of 7 different grades from workshop heaven it seems a horribly expensive way to fly. Thoughts anyone?

Cheers Mike

 

[Good Surname or what ?]

I rejected scary sharp as too expensive.

I use waterstones - I agree it can be messy - but flattening is easy and quick if you do it often. I have no problem getting a fantastic edge on both old carbon steel blades and modern A2 L-N blades. But then, I have had the benefit of a DC training course. 8)

PS - actually 2 DC training courses. I recently returned from the dovetailing course - I'll post a quick review in a week or so. 8) 8)

 

[woodbloke]

Mike - there's currently a good thread on the Buying Advice forum where you can see what Paul Chapman and I use - Rob

 

[Dave S]

The cost relates to the amount of metal you remove. For just regular honing I don't think it's too bad, but for restoration or removing hefty nicks it can start to use up the paper quite quickly.

I must admit I've been using scary sharp for years - probably could have got myself a good set of waterstones with the money I've spent.

I think Scary sharp is a pretty good option for the beginner on a budget as it can give good results with minimal initial outlay. But personally I've been meaning for ages to move onto waterstones - but there always seems to be something else to spend the money on :?


Dave

 

[mr]

Thanks all
My feeling is that the frequency of my sharpening and (bevel repair) work removing nicks etc is such that Ill go bankrupt quite quick with the scary sharp method.
Id like to get the sharpening stones over to the main bench and away from the sink in the next room to make it less of a painful chore but that means something less messy hence looking at diamond stones. I saw those DMT diamond stones on the other thread Rob / Paul C and looked them up on Axminster but at over £120 for a set of three I think I might be staying with the waterstones. Having said that whats the difference between the DMT bench whetstone in Pauls pic and the DMT Dia Sharp continuous stones which are half the price (roughly)?

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=21925&name=DMT&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=4

Cheers Mike

 

[Woody Alan]

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=226

I bought some 8 x 3 stones from here, they arrived in a couple of days by fed ex door to door and I paid Vat a few days later and no stupid Post Office surcharge for collecting it. I think when you place the order they send you the carriage options before taking the money. I have used them a few times, good customer service. The stones cut harsh to start with but settle down. They have a lot of other options you may want to condsider. I use the coarse stone to flatten my india stone which I have to say is the cheapest but possibly the most versatile stone I have just was difficult to keep absolutely flat the other diamond stones I bought could almost be surplus . I know DC likes waterstones but of all the options for me they have turned out to be the least effective/useable, could just be the ones I have but I would/do use the india in preference. I also have some natural arkansa stones from woodcraft that I would recommend as readily as the diamonds but you want fast removal of nicks.

Alan

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Mike,

When I bought my DMT polka dot stones many years ago, they were the only type generally available. If I were buying today I would probably get the ones without the holes because narrow blades can catch in the holes if you are not careful.

The Trend diamond whetstone kit looks quite good for £108 http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/diamond ... stones.asp Not sure how fine their 'fine' is - they don't seem to do an extra fine in that range. Perhaps Andy from Trend could comment. But I'd get a piece of leather to make up a strop as well.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Nick W]

I've recently changed my sharpening methodology from water stones to: Grind on Tormek
Polish on a fine ceramic stone until the smallest area at the tip of the blade is shiny (less than .5mm) - the hollow grind from the Tormek leaves two areas of the blade in contact with the ceramic.
Hone on leather using Tormek paste - though I suspect that e.g. AutoSolvol would also work well.

I have found this to be very much faster than waterstones, very much less messy, and very much sharper - though that is probably 'cos I didn't used to hone.

Re-sharpening is by re-honing a few times the re-polish on the ceramic, and only re-grind after a good while, or a nasty nick (note the small N before anyone makes any quips :evil: )

 

[Vormulac]

The Trend diamond whetstone kit looks quite good for £108 http://www.trendmachinery.co.uk/diamond ... stones.asp Not sure how fine their 'fine' is - they don't seem to do an extra fine in that range. Perhaps Andy from Trend could comment. But I'd get a piece of leather to make up a strop as well.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

I bought the Trend Diamond Whetstone kit at the Ally Pally show earlier this year and the double sided stone is very effective for general sharpening and it is a nice 'clean' way to do it. For serious gouges in your blade you're going to want something much more coarse, and to be honest, if I'm looking for a real killer edge I will finish it off on my 6000 grit waterstone.
I could be imagining it, but I could swear that there is a tiny 'ripple' in the surface of my Trend diamond stone, I doubt it makes much difference really.
Incidentally, I just rub my waterstones together each time I use them to get a flat surface, only takes a couple of moments if you do it every time.
(sometimes I just use my waterstones, depends how masochistic I'm feeling)

 

[Philly]

S'funny - I've been re-evaluating my sharpening methods lately. It actually boils down to this - a coarse "re-establish" grind and a fine honing. Two distinct and very different actions.
The coarse grind can be done on a bench grinder, belt sander, Tormek or coarse stone. You CAN use a bench grinder to rough grind your blades quickly - just use common sense about not over-heating the tool.
The honing is a totally different action - putting a fine edge on a tool, no radical metal removal.
Which sharpening media you use to achieve each stage is less important than having a routine or system that works for you. It is worthless spending hours roughing out a chip on an expensive stone when a few seconds on a grinder (that costs less than £25) will achieve the same thing quicker and to the same standard.
The final honing, and how far you hone, is down what you have. Excellent results can be had with wet and dry, chrome polish, oil or waterstones, etc.
The most important thing is achieving a sharp edge - and being able to easily repeat this.
Just my thoughts......
Philly

 

[Alf]

Hell's teeth, Phil, you bin reading my mind or summat? :shock:

The final honing, and how far you hone, is down what you have.

I'd argue it's down to what you need. No point in taking a roughing plane's iron down to 0.01 of a micron, even if you can.

Cheers, Alf

 

[mr]

I think I have to start using my grinder. Given to me by a relative had had no use for it but it just sits there amid a pile of flammable shavings I think I need to get the workshop in order, and then get hold of some kind of angle jig for the grinder and give that a go. It may be that part of the pain of the waterstones is that it takes so long to "regrind" before you can get on to the business of sharpening. It would also come in handy when I get round to making marking knife, plane blades - the list is endless.
Cheers Mike

 

[Philly]

Al - yes, you got it!
Mike - the reason waterstones get a lot of stick (IMHO) is because they get used for serious metal removal. If you use them for honing you only need six strokes on two or three stones to give you a very sharp edge. You don't have to flatten them constantly with that kind of treatment.
Another thing that makes me giggle - we spend time making sure out sharpening media is perfectly flat and then try and make out plane irons curved!! :lol: If we leave the stones slightly dished it would happen automatically.......(and I am jesting slightly - I do understand the advantages of flat stones :wink: )
Apologies for going a bit off topic, Mike!
Philly

 

[woodbloke]

S'funny - I've been re-evaluating my sharpening methods lately. It actually boils down to this - a coarse "re-establish" grind and a fine honing. Two distinct and very different actions.
The coarse grind can be done on a bench grinder, belt sander, Tormek or coarse stone. You CAN use a bench grinder to rough grind your blades quickly - just use common sense about not over-heating the tool.
The honing is a totally different action - putting a fine edge on a tool, no radical metal removal.
Which sharpening media you use to achieve each stage is less important than having a routine or system that works for you. It is worthless spending hours roughing out a chip on an expensive stone when a few seconds on a grinder (that costs less than £25) will achieve the same thing quicker and to the same standard.
The final honing, and how far you hone, is down what you have. Excellent results can be had with wet and dry, chrome polish, oil or waterstones, etc.
The most important thing is achieving a sharp edge - and being able to easily repeat this.
Just my thoughts......
Philly

Phill - isn't this what everyone does, although using different methods? My coarse grind is on the Tormek when the honed bevel gets too wide (say1.5mm or so) and then I grind until a tiny amount of the original honed bevel is left which then is a guide to let me know that I've removed enough metal without taking off any further unnecessary steel (unless there's a nick in the blade in which case it's ground out)
The honed edge I produce on the DMT's and a strop, I did try waterstones for the sharp bit but could never get anything like the edge I can get with my present method - Rob

 

[Philly]

Rob
You're right!!! It IS what everyone does - it is realizing that. The two stages are separate, not always done together. And they require a different approach. When you realize that the actual media used is unimportant.
I'll get off my Zen soapbox now....... :lol:
Phil

 

[joiner_sim]

hi,

I have got one of these diamond stones http://www.ezelap.com/doublesided.htm Brought it from my local toolshop for £30 quid about a year ago. It's still sharpening up all my chisels and planes very well.

 

[Anonymous]

Hell's teeth, Phil, you bin reading my mind or summat? :shock:

The final honing, and how far you hone, is down what you have.

I'd argue it's down to what you need. No point in taking a roughing plane's iron down to 0.01 of a micron, even if you can.

Cheers, Alf

Spot on Alf, spot on!

 

[mr]

Al - yes, you got it!
Mike - the reason waterstones get a lot of stick (IMHO) is because they get used for serious metal removal. If you use them for honing you only need six strokes on two or three stones to give you a very sharp edge. You don't have to flatten them constantly with that kind of treatment.

I recall you mentioning that six strokes per stone and wondered at the time how you pulled that off. My stones are flat and my blades are straight, none of them funny cambered things - we burns people down 'ere for that sort of thing. I think the secret (or at least the first thing to try) is sorting out the workshop and start grinding on the grinder rather than the waterstone (though I'm not mad on the idea of hollow ground bevels - it just seems wrong somehow) and then use the waterstones for what they're intended for. I will promote the workshop sort out up the list to next but one.

Cheers Mike

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think the secret (or at least the first thing to try) is sorting out the workshop and start grinding on the grinder rather than the waterstone

But do be careful if it's a high-speed grinder, Mike. I don't use mine on my good blades because it's so easy to burn the blades. I use my coarse stone on the primary bevel. If it is a high-speed one you could try getting one of the wheels that's supposed to run cooler - I think they are white or pink or something like that, but I'm not sure because I haven't got one. Must do the lottery and get a Tormek :wink:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Funny, I've been thinking about that too, Paul. I think we fear the high-speed grinder altogether too much. It's a bit like a belt sander I think; needs a bit of practice and a light touch but when you've got to grips with it you can make it do such useful things. At least that's what I hear about belt sanders - never used one... :lol:

Mike, if you go down the route of a new fancy stone for your grinder, get the coarsest you can. The trap we all often fall into is going for the stuff that's really designed for turners to use in order to go straight from the grinder to the work. For the purposes of using a grinder for the coarse stage of tool maintenance you simply don't need a finer grit and there's a positive disadvantage; the coarser the grind the faster the work goes and the cooler the tool will stay. Also invest in a good wheel dresser and use it regularly - clogged wheels are inefficient and help things get hot that much sooner. Most important of all, and where I bet most of us have gone wrong at some point, is a light touch. Let the wheel do the work. Easy to say mind you, so definitely have some practice with a beater chisel or plane blade first. Pot of water to cool the steel, good solid rest and a grip that keeps your fingers close enough to the edge that should you feel any warmth you'll know to stop in good time and you'll be fine. You may even come to love the hollow grind.

But I must go - got a class of grandmothers to teach next... #-o

Cheers, Alf