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I think 'insulation' has been mentioned on almost every post here.
But what about ventilation?
Air exchange is not only necessary to prevent 'stuffiness' but to prevent pollution build up, apparently tenants have actually sued landlords over Asthma problems in homes with little air exchange, (see Google).
Then of course there is atmospheric moisture, too little is also uncomfortable.
Hopefully Mike is the man to answer this but as I see it the only way to maintain 'fresh air' without losing heat is a very complex heat exchanger system that extracts the heat from vented air and then returns it to the incoming air.
Isn't this the same problem that is coursing the airlines some difficulties?

Roy.
 
Ventilation has been mentioned a couple of times.

Its very impotent indeed. But can be a major heat loss when not proportional 'correct' or to low to the ground where we feel the flow of fress air and call it draft.

A good ventilation system does a couple of things:
- It constantly refreshes the air
- It prevents wind from affecting the rate of ventilation to much
- It exchanged the heat to preheat the incoming fresh air- It balances the temperatures in the house to prevent the heat from accumulating at the highest point
- It interchanges warm and cooler air to lower the moister levels
- It reduces the noise from outside

Having only a window open now and then does not meet any of these.Having some ventilation openenings near windows doesn't do very much either, it only to some extent meet the first point.

The current available ventilation systems seem to be priced to high for what they technically are. And at least in the Netherlands when applied, they arte installed incorrectly, whith wrong tubing, in- and outlets to save costs, and not adjusted properly.
 
tnimble":3sg42a5m said:
Indeed a good designed an well insulated house has virtually no need for heating. .

In Warmer climate maybe ! Not here, ... thats a nonsense.

Insulation - will SLOW DOWN THE RATE OF HEAT EXCHANGE ONLY !!
Insulation will NOT GENERATE HEAT.

If its -4Deg C Outside your house.... any heat that is contained within your house, wants to 'exchange' and therfore equalise the temperature between ouside and inside.
INSULATION slows this rate of heat exchange down .
it does not prevent it from happening.

Given enough time, and ZERO INPUT of any heat by way of topping up the inside temperature, that difference will eventually equalise !
Absolutely no doubt about it !!

Given that the volume of the inside of the building, compared to the volume of 'outside' is a microscopic proportion, its going to become the same temperature as it is outside.

You can't get 'beyond physics' my friend... :wink:


A Thermos flask, given enough time, will eventually let your coffee go cold.
A Building, and its heat, are absolutely no different.




And Roy, yes you're correct about ventilation.. achieving the correct Airchanges per hour, per given living-space, is part of the design brief, every time :wink:
 
Jenx":2fig8obq said:
tnimble":2fig8obq said:
Indeed a good designed an well insulated house has virtually no need for heating. .

In Warmer climate maybe ! Not here, ... thats a nonsense.

Insulation - will SLOW DOWN THE RATE OF HEAT EXCHANGE

They actually achieve that not only by insulating the house. (most of these houses are insulated with 40cm rockwool or Cellulose, one project uses vacuum wall panels) Under the house is a heat store tank of a couple of thousand letres. During the summer solar collector panels charge the tank, during the night and winter the stored heat is used to heat the house and provide hot water. Electricity is gendered with either a combination of wind turbines, photovoltaic panels or utelising small scale CSP, water power generator (when a river or lake is nearby) backup by fuell cells.

These houses do use 0 amount of gas, oil, coal or other fuel. Some of them also use 0 amount of electricity average and some even zero electricity all year long.
 
tnimble":1p0q42el said:
Under the house is a heat store tank of a couple of thousand letres. During the summer solar collector panels charge the tank, during the night and winter the stored heat is used to heat the house and provide hot water. Electricity is gendered with either a combination of wind turbines, photovoltaic panels or utelising small scale CSP, water power generator (when a river or lake is nearby) backup by fuell cells.
.


That certainly sounds like HEATING to me :wink:
So-- the houses that 'Had virtually no need for heating',
have Heat-Storage Tanks, Solar Panels, Electrically available heat from wind turbine generation, photovoltaic & other generators ...
Thats a big difference from 'Virtually No Heating' !

Perhaps what you could have said was 'virtually no fossil-fuel use'.... because there is a mighty big difference.

From what you've said, .... They absoluteoly DO have heating .. just not heating that is fired by Gas, oil or solid fuel.

Not quite the same, is it ? :wink: :D
 
Agreed, was a bit misphrased.

But all the equipment installed is for the electrical supply. The solar collector panels for hot tap water etc. Since the heat losses are virtually only caused by entering and leaving the house the required amount is extremely limited. If these houses would have had a heater of some kind other than just storage the running costs would be extremely low, virtually nothing compare to tradition build houses in the same climate.
 
Well, we are drifting into the territory we covered in another thread last week.

Firstly, ventilation. I specify a whole house ventilation system with heat recovery (MHRV) in every new house I design, and have installed them in every house I have built. They are marvellous.......providing a constant supply of fresh, but pre-warmed air at a controlled rate, reducing condensation to virtually nil, and preventing the build up of stale or polluted air. (They can even be filtered to prevent, say, pollen, getting into the air of the house of someone who suffers from hay fever). Roy, they are relatively cheap, and extremely simple...........the heat exchanger is simply a layered plastic grill. Baxi do a good one.

Block up the chimney and install a MHRV unit and your fuel bills will plummet!

Secondly, insulation and low energy houses. I have built 5 of the most energy efficient houses ever built in this country. Two are still in the top 5 (most energy efficient above-ground houses) last time I looked. They do not rely on the inter-seasonal storage that Chritian describes, but instead trap passive solar gain, "waste" heat from normal household appliances (particularly the fridge, lights, hot water, TV's and computers, and the kilowatt or so that human bodies give off).

So Jenx, come to visit my house, which costs £40 per year.....yes.....per year........to heat, and then tell me that
Warmer climate maybe ! Not here, ... thats a nonsense
.

I can then take you up the road to a friend of mine who has gone further, and built a house that has no central heating, and only one tiny woodburner, (which he doesn't light before December usually).

There are houses half way up the Rockies in Canada with no heating requirement whatsoever.........this stuff is not nonsense!!!

This is all done with insulation and thermal mass. I have 200mm of insulation in my walls, and 500mm in my loft...........plus triple glazing. Given that I didn't need any heating upstairs, and have a boiler that would normally do a one bedroom flat, my capital (building costs) were within about 2% of what a "normal" house would have cost (except for the thatched roof and conservatory).

The point about the houses tending to the external temperature would be correct if there were no heat imputs.............but there are. The sun shines occasionally, and I grab the heat from the conservatory. The fridge runs constantly etc etc. We went away for 5 weeks last autumn, and when we got back the house was at 17 degrees, with the heating turned off. It also, incidentally, didn't smell stale because of the ventilation system.

I understand your incredulity, Jenx..............I see it every time I a visitor who says how warm my house is in mid-January that the heating last came on before Christmas. I see it every time I tell someone that their new house could be the warmest in the country yet have no central heating.

But, actually...............I'm right. I am right because I live it.........as I say, come and visit.

Mike
 
Mike Garnham":2ivns1m4 said:
Secondly, insulation and low energy houses. I have built 5 of the most energy efficient houses ever built in this country. Two are still in the top 5 (most energy efficient above-ground houses) last time I looked. They do not rely on the inter-seasonal storage that Chritian describes, but instead trap passive solar gain, "waste" heat from normal household appliances (particularly the fridge, lights, hot water, TV's and computers, and the kilowatt or so that human bodies give off).

Cool! But how do you get hot water in the middle of a winter night without either tha large heat storage tank or a 'traditional' fuel burning boiler?
 
I have a traditional boiler........I will get around to solar panels one day, but that won't remove the need for a boiler.

My house will always need the central heating, even though it is only on a few times a year. It has never ever come on 2 days in a row, and the house is ten years old now. This stuff works!!!

Mike
 
Thanks for that Mike, I'll follow it up.
When my C/H was installed the 'master' rad in the hallway was sized to cover the master bedroom to avoid considerable piping problems, and it all worked well.
Also the front doors were 2mtrs wide and very draughty, the inner doors were like wise.
In the last few months I have made complete new inner and outers, plus stable door for cooling in summer.
Enter Roy with piles of insulation.
Result?
The 'master rad has now got to be reduced in size 'cos the 'overshoot' is murder and the L/S valve is almost closed to give the rest of the rads time to warm up!
In addition the LPG supplier has reduced my payments from £85/mnth to £50/mnth despite a 40% increase in price and they currently owe me just over £600! All this despite a 25% increase in living accommodation as well.
If I get the ventilation sorted I will be very happy bunny.
I might plague you yet Mike. You have been warned! :lol:

Roy.
 
Sounds excellent Mike, really does !

My point however, is only borne out by what you have discussed there... INSULATION !! you can't have enough !

Something HAS to put the initial heat into a space... whether thats a Candle, or a 500,000 BTU Powrmatic, is basically irrelevant.. Something has to put heat there ! ..... do you see my point ?

The Dutch fella said NO HEAT. yet, when it transpires, there is indeed heat there.

( I'm a pedantic little monkey I know :wink: ... but you cannot get "something for nothing", you'd then be in the realms of "beyond 100% efficiency", and that is not possible. )

What you describe is an extremely well designed, effective and highly efficient set up, but something, has to put that heat in there in the first place.
Its misleading to believe otherwise.
 
( I'm a pedantic little monkey I know
No! An engineer! I have been caught too many times by people's statements that have left out info that I needed.
I always taught my apprentices that 'that person over there has the info you need. Getting it out of 'em is like getting teeth out of a Duck!' :lol:

Roy.
 
Jenx":dlgiyq44 said:
My point however, is only borne out by what you have discussed there... INSULATION !! you can't have enough !
No you about can not. The only prob is that the added amount needed to improve increasingly get higher and higher. But tell the average builder/designer that, you can get lauged at when talking about 30cm mineral wool. "a total waste of money, 10cm of glass wool is more then enough, even better safe some money and use 5cm polystyrene"

( I'm a pedantic little monkey I know :wink: ... but you cannot get "something for nothing", you'd then be in the realms of "beyond 100% efficiency", and that is not possible. )

pedantically speaking, something gratis would be something for nothing. ;) And salespeople state well over 100% efficiency for condensing boilers :roll:
 
And thats why they're salespeople, and not engineers :wink:

Its (on paper) theoretically possible to show by manipulation of figures that efficiency of a condensing boiler is +100%
Thats been happening since at least 1988, I remember being shown it on a course then. Its 'Theory' though. The practicality is slightly different.
8)

If anyone in any sphere of life, anywhere, can demonstrate the practicality of Less Energy in, for More energy out, then Hats off to them :wink:
Cause thats getting energy for free., and we'd ALL like to know about that :p
 
Well as we've got all the experts together here, HELP!
The walls of my bungalow have no insulation at all. Constructed in 1938 it's plaster board on three inch studding and clapboard outer skin.
Is there a granular insulation that I could pour into the void?

Roy.
 
Digit":34tt9rxn said:
Well as we've got all the experts together here, HELP!
The walls of my bungalow have no insulation at all. Constructed in 1938 it's plaster board on three inch studding and clapboard outer skin.
Is there a granular insulation that I could pour into the void?
Roy.
Roy,

yes there is.....a number in fact. I think your best best might be Warmcell, which is blown in under pressure, and can be done through small (38mm, I think) holes between each stud. It is a cellulose fibre, and importantly, has the property of absorbing water vapour and releasing it slowly.......which with your thin walls could be an assett. By the by, it is made from recycled newspaper.....and is fire, insect and rot proof.

If you went down the "pouring it in" route, Vermiculite would probably be favourite......but the big problem would be filling all the voids to the top. Becasue you would be relying on gravity you would struggle to fill up to the underside of your plates, windows etc.

What a difference these could make for you, Roy!!! You will be amazed how much warmer you will be!

Warmcell is installed by trained sub-contractors, so you could google for a local company to come and quote.

The other options.....removing all the boarding, or all of the plasterboarding.......don't bear thinking about! Incidentally, if you are considering a whole house ventilation system, they suit bungalows really well, because the pipe runs in the loft are so straight forward.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike. I realised the problem with windows etc but fortunately it doesn't exist, the structure is in cells. Removing the top board under the window would simply permit the filling of the void beneath the window.
I imagine cable entries into socket boxes would need sealing though?
And now I find I've a ***** water leak on the canopy at the side of the house. There must be something better than felt, well I know there is, affording it is the problem.
Oh well!

Roy.
 

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