Winter storage, wax on tools?

[D_W]

ACF50 is what I use now, especially on cast iron, it's particularly good for long-term storage, since using it on my planes about 3 months ago there's not even a hint of rust.

I'm curious about all of these sprays - the US SDS for this spray basically says it's two propellants plus naptha and a neutral oil (presumably that neutral oil won't cure). The spray here is about $16 a can, which is convenient, but is it better than mixing naptha and mineral oil in a spray bottle?

WD40s MSDS suggests (I'd need a chemist to know if any of these dry - neutral, i'm assuming means that they don't react with much) it's a hydrocarbon (1/2 - taking the place of naptha) and then a combination of petroleum oils - about 25%, and kerosene/jet fuel - about 15-20%. Presumably, WD40 is made intentionally of an oil that will oxidize or change and form a film (as it does), though it's hard to know if that's on purpose, or if it's a matter of just not having as clean of oils as some other sprays.

Neutral food safe mineral oil in the US is about $16 a gallon, and mineral spirits or naptha are probably about the same.

Interestingly, the eye-wateringly expensive "trend honing fluid" MSDS showed a slow-evaporating naptha and petroleum oils (sort of a theme developing here) - and somewhere they added something that makes it look blue. Smurf, I guess.

I don't use WD40 on everything as I don't think it's probably as touch safe as mineral oil, but I've not had anything with mineral oil rust (and went to that after realizing that camelia oil seemed like it was being sold by woodworking retailers solely because they could charge the same for it in 8 ounces as food supply supplied food safe machine mineral oil (for meat slicing lube and cleaning) for 128 ounces. And the mineral oil doesn't start to set up in the fall in my shop.

 

[thetyreman]

camelia oil is also excellent too, I started off with that and it worked well.

I'm curious about all of these sprays - the US SDS for this spray basically says it's two propellants plus naptha and a neutral oil (presumably that neutral oil won't cure). The spray here is about $16 a can, which is convenient, but is it better than mixing naptha and mineral oil in a spray bottle?

WD40s MSDS suggests (I'd need a chemist to know if any of these dry - neutral, i'm assuming means that they don't react with much) it's a hydrocarbon (1/2 - taking the place of naptha) and then a combination of petroleum oils - about 25%, and kerosene/jet fuel - about 15-20%. Presumably, WD40 is made intentionally of an oil that will oxidize or change and form a film (as it does), though it's hard to know if that's on purpose, or if it's a matter of just not having as clean of oils as some other sprays.

Neutral food safe mineral oil in the US is about $16 a gallon, and mineral spirits or naptha are probably about the same.

Interestingly, the eye-wateringly expensive "trend honing fluid" MSDS showed a slow-evaporating naptha and petroleum oils (sort of a theme developing here) - and somewhere they added something that makes it look blue. Smurf, I guess.

I don't use WD40 on everything as I don't think it's probably as touch safe as mineral oil, but I've not had anything with mineral oil rust (and went to that after realizing that camelia oil seemed like it was being sold by woodworking retailers solely because they could charge the same for it in 8 ounces as food supply supplied food safe machine mineral oil (for meat slicing lube and cleaning) for 128 ounces. And the mineral oil doesn't start to set up in the fall in my shop.

I haven't tried mineral oil, but I have tried WD40 and prefer the ACF50, it seems to perform better in terms of preventing rust, that's my observations, the WD40 does work but will eventually rust, the ACF50 seems to last at least 4 times longer before any rust kicks in in a damp or un insulated environment, these are just my observations and not proper scientific tests.

 

[pe2dave]

Tks @thetyreman Lots of choice? Spray (can / refillable), 'grease' - what's your preference please?
Amazon has lots of variants?

 

[thetyreman]

Tks @thetyreman Lots of choice? Spray (can / refillable), 'grease' - what's your preference please?
Amazon has lots of variants?

I prefer the pump spray version, with the bottle and spray, it's more expensive but should last a very long time.

 

[D_W]

looking closer at WD40 - it appears to be about 25 percent oils, and no guarantee that they're stable as it's listed as a mix (and I'm not a chemist, so reading the chem codes wouldn't help).

so, mineral oil would probably be about 4 times as effective by volume, and it's then just a matter of what viscosity (it looks like ACF50 has a small amount of naptha and then about 80% stabilized high viscosity lubricant - same thing is sold here as an "ultra clean" gear oil. ).

Upgrade industrial oils here look to be about half of the same and then half less stable (which probably makes them a lot cheaper to make mixing the two).

At any rate, mineral oil is worth trying. if you want something heavy like ACF50 and to just buy the oil instead, you can cross reference C20-50 oil based on the SDS.

If mineral oil alone isn't good enough (thick enough) I just start adding proportional beeswax (the two together don't oxidize, etc), and 50/50 is a nice mix to put a dab on your thumb and rub it onto something and then wipe off any small excess.

My shop is like you say - humidity is a huge problem. It's halfway underground and cool in the summer where the dewpoint here can easily reach the 70s (leaving an 80 degree shop way over supposed rust humidity - 63%).

Out of curiosity, I will take an older tool that hasn't been used in more than a year when I get home and stuff it under the metallurgical scope. Mineral oil, even a little, shows up on a polished surface.

this is a freshly sharpened iron at 150x optical. You can make out the tiny droplets. This is after the oil was wiped off three or four times - it's not like it's adhered or anything, but just the act of wiping a stable oil with a rag will literally leave a film of oil on anything else it touches.



The reason I don't use the lube sprays is partially because they're often in aerosol (which leads to a little on something, and a whole lot everywhere else), and also because I'd like to just have one container for lubricant, wax mix and rust prevention instead of having to chase down brands of this or that that are just common components mixed and marketed. it's not as exciting as mentioning a brand, but it's $15-$25 a gallon vs. $100+ (or more in aerosol cans).

 

[Craig22]

Camelia oil. I have a pump spray, and a felt wiper. Bought probably 15 years ago and still plenty left. Still available from Axminster

https://www.axminstertools.com/camellia-oil-pump-spray-bottle-510018https://www.axminstertools.com/camellia-oil-applicator-300317
Works great and easily wipes off before using the tool.

Actually looking at the image of the applicator, mine is worn nearly flat with use. Note to self - buy an new one.

I wouldn't use WD40, by the way. As the solvent slowly evaporates it leaves a gummy deposit that is difficult to get off. In fact the stuff has few uses IMNSHE. No use in lubricating bike chains - it just washes the grit further into the links. And the sub culture who restore and use teleprinters hate the stuff. WD40 just mobilises old gummy grease, and washes it deep into the complex mechanism. When the solvent evaporates the machine seizes up, and the only recovery is complete disassembly. And with the spray dispenser, it's carbon credentials are questionable.

 

[Droogs]

@Craig22 Please please please tell me that this weird sub-culture melt down and destroy every Cossor and T11 they find (for the good of humanity)

 

[Craig22]

@Craig22 Please please please tell me that this weird sub-culture melt down and destroy every Cossor and T11 they find (for the good of humanity)

Ha ha! Yup. I only took an interest in this through restoring a cipher machine at Bletchley Park, the SZ42. This was essentially a teletype, or punched tape reader driven unit that produced real time cipher at 80 baud. That was an impressive number in 1942.

 

[D_W]

I wouldn't use WD40, by the way. As the solvent slowly evaporates it leaves a gummy deposit that is difficult to get off. In fact the stuff has few uses IMNSHE. No use in lubricating bike chains - it just washes the grit further into the links. And the sub culture who restore and use teleprinters hate the stuff. WD40 just mobilises old gummy grease, and washes it deep into the complex mechanism. When the solvent evaporates the machine seizes up, and the only recovery is complete disassembly. And with the spray dispenser, it's carbon credentials are questionable.

This is actually the same thing listed as a warning for sewing machines, except those use a very thin machine oil (same thing as the light mineral oil I mentioned above). For a sewing machine, the oil needs to be neutral and non-oxidizing. I'm guessing refined camelia may be that, just much more expensive that food safe machine oil.

I did find something very useful from this discussion, and that is that the expensive aerosol mentioned previously more or less uses a high viscosity mineral oil. I thought at first that it would be difficult to find because the spec is C20-C50 oils, and gear lubrication tends to be more industrial.

But I looked up food safe synthetic gear oil today and found more or less the same thing for $15 a quart (including shipping). It mentions the same properties as the canadian spray lubricant (150-400W viscosity depending on what you want, dielectric, rust preventive, non oxidizing hydrotreated oil).

Ever since LV released V11 and wouldn't tell anyone what it was, I've had a fascination with finding what's actually in things sold to the public and then finding a cheaper source. Unfortunately, the carpenter steel that is most likely V11 isn't cheap, but I don't have a great deal of use for it at this point other than kitchen knives - and only then because I can heat treat it in an open atmosphere and get a good result.

At any rate, if anyone is looking for high viscosity mineral oil (as the food machine oil and sewing machine oil is low viscosity, and I could see the use for high viscosity oils as they'll wipe off less easily), look for "synthetic high viscosity food safe gear oil". I'm sure the manufacturer in the UK will be different.

(Also separate from the message above - hope I'd find a chisel that I covered with mineral oil a year or two ago, but it looks like all of the chisels hanging in my shop have been used since they were last oiled. Still rust free, though, even though using them took most of the visible oil off. When I used waterstones, I'd come back to something like that with a light bloom in it in much less than a year).

 

[D_W]

by the way, on the hydrotreated mineral oils that are food safe - I have bought two gallons (it goes in my IM 313 and has been used for all kinds of other stuff, so my first gallon is almost out 15 years later), both have the same CAS number as norton's honing oil. I got some grief on another forum for suggesting that maybe there's no great need to buy the same CAS number for 8 times the cost because of the norton can, and given where norton sells their oil, it's got to be marked up to make a lot of room for retail distribution, display, etc . ..and for norton.

The sentiment was that the oil could oxidize (15 or so years later, my first jug is still clear).

Sewing machine oil is the same thing. When my dad discovered he had a washita stone and I showed him what it could do, 200 miles from where I live, we needed a lubricant. He collects oil cans -so many that he doesn't care if they're unopened - he'll draw oil out of them. He whipped out an unopened can of singer sewing machine oil from the 1940s and it still flowed well and was only ever so slightly yellow, still with no odor at all. If anyone needs more stability than that, I don't know who they are. Before I demonstrated the stone, I was going to be given "the worthless thing - it cuts too slowly". I demonstrated it after using the oil to loosen the cake of stuff on the stone surface, and the offer to hand it over was rescinded!

 

[Awac]

https://ballistol.com/longevity/
Good stuff I find, but the smell is marmite, you’ll love it or hate it. Personally I love it, reminds me of aniseed, my wife tells me it smells of wet socks!

 

[Awac]

by the way, on the hydrotreated mineral oils that are food safe - I have bought two gallons (it goes in my IM 313 and has been used for all kinds of other stuff, so my first gallon is almost out 15 years later), both have the same CAS number as norton's honing oil. I got some grief on another forum for suggesting that maybe there's no great need to buy the same CAS number for 8 times the cost because of the norton can, and given where norton sells their oil, it's got to be marked up to make a lot of room for retail distribution, display, etc . ..and for norton.

The sentiment was that the oil could oxidize (15 or so years later, my first jug is still clear).

Sewing machine oil is the same thing. When my dad discovered he had a washita stone and I showed him what it could do, 200 miles from where I live, we needed a lubricant. He collects oil cans -so many that he doesn't care if they're unopened - he'll draw oil out of them. He whipped out an unopened can of singer sewing machine oil from the 1940s and it still flowed well and was only ever so slightly yellow, still with no odor at all. If anyone needs more stability than that, I don't know who they are. Before I demonstrated the stone, I was going to be given "the worthless thing - it cuts too slowly". I demonstrated it after using the oil to loosen the cake of stuff on the stone surface, and the offer to hand it over was rescinded!

Sewing machine oil is brilliant for oilstone sharpening, and a very good price. I don’t get any reaction on my hands from it as well. Always keeps the stones clear.

 

[D_W]

Sewing machine oil is brilliant for oilstone sharpening, and a very good price. I don’t get any reaction on my hands from it as well. Always keeps the stones clear.

Yes sir. Unless it's some off name oil from China, it'll basically be hydrotreated light mineral oil. Same thing as norton bottles. Literally still flowed well at 70 years old and doesn't evaporate or oxidize.

And usually cheap in a commercial bottle.

 

[pe2dave]

Some ACF50 delivered today. Guy on YT 'warmed' it in water prior to use (thin it out?), so I did.
Sprayer? Absolutely .. useless. Sprays a jet, nothing less.
Wiped on my chisels, with clean waste cloth.

See how it compares with waxed cast iron bed, waxed.

I shall report back!

 

[D_W]

Some ACF50 delivered today. Guy on YT 'warmed' it in water prior to use (thin it out?), so I did.
Sprayer? Absolutely .. useless. Sprays a jet, nothing less.
Wiped on my chisels, with clean waste cloth.

See how it compares with waxed cast iron bed, waxed.

I shall report back!

If you want to spray something (Without aerosol), buy sewing machine oil. The ACF 50 oil is probably bout 90w (gear oil). Sewing machine oil is 5w or 0w.

You can make use of the two by choosing where you want thick oil and where you want thin. For folks who want something cheaper, as mentioned above, you can get the same thing as ACF50 by finding food safe heavy gear oil. It's half the price here.

I know that doesn't matter if you don't use it heavily, but you will find uses for mineral oil once you have it. As a sanding wax for turning (mixed with beeswax), rust preventive either alone or combined with wax, and a 50/50 organic beeswax (which is about $8 here for a pound) will make a quart of the best lip and skin balm you've ever used without fragrances or any other nonsense (you can just take a little tin and scoop it out of your shop mix).

I've not had rust issues in years, so no real incentive to get heavy gear oil (I think I may have ordered a quart from amazon, anyway - $16 delivered here), but it's nice if we can get away from general retailing and more toward making so that we aren't sourcing and paying shipping on little things. And something I haven't done in a decade is buy anything for rust prevention. It's nice to not have to look around when you need something and try to figure out what you used to get that's now got a different label or been purchased. A $13 quart of lip balm/sandingwax/whatever you want that doesn't spoil even with the lid open is pretty nice, too.

 

[pe2dave]

A more scientific comparison, for rust protection.

 

[pe2dave]

Some ACF50 delivered today. Guy on YT 'warmed' it in water prior to use (thin it out?), so I did.
Sprayer? Absolutely .. useless. Sprays a jet, nothing less.
Wiped on my chisels, with clean waste cloth.

See how it compares with waxed cast iron bed, waxed.

I shall report back!

Duly applied to cast iron bed (bandsaw).
A week later (cool weather), surface is still tacky. Enough to pick up sawdust.
I am not impressed for 'winter use'. Storage? Perhaps?
Back to wax.

 

[D_W]

A more scientific comparison, for rust protection.

How do these tests pan out compared to actually using something (experimenting) with your own setup?

I have made knives out of XHP (the same or similar to V11). XHP is not very stainless. It fares poorly in tests where corrosion is induced intentionally (and I"m sure it would do poorly in a shed next to the ocean).

I've never had any of it rust - not the stock sitting in my humid garage and none of the finished products, and not the kitchen knives.

I outlined above what's going on with the ACF50 and others - they're stable long-term oils, high viscosity. Longer term storage is an interesting possible offshoot (but without evidence that wax doesn't do just as well). For more transient use, thin machine oil that's hydrotreated or food safe is cheap and about.

Why people think they can't manage to work with stuff that doesn't have a specific brand on is beyond me.

It's "boeshield" in the US. I've never seen a comparison of "boeshield" to paste wax or a very very thin layer of shellac, which would settle into the machined surface of cast even if it wore off on the tips.

But thanks to this thread, I do know that I can track own hydrotreated gear oil if a thicker oil is desired, and not for huge money (well, thanks to looking up the MSDS components).

(at the same time, the combination of wax and mineral oil has made it so that I never needed to know this before, so maybe I don't need to know it now).

I did find another rusty tool in my arsenal - a norris shoulder plane (oops). A soap supply container of almond oil above the plane developed a small crack, it dripped on the plane and then over the last year or so, the oil has oxidized to turn brown and apparently attracted something that would oxidize metal, too. It took about 10 minutes to recondition the plane. Shellac probably would've prevented the damage, but nothing else would've (the plane was waxed). I'm not in the habit of putting shellac on old planes.

 

[Phill05]

Dave not kidding try Brywax.

 

[bp122]

This is what I use for almost all my tools

https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-machine-wax-105806