Why Two?

[Saint Simon]

Listening to the man from Lie Nielsen at Cressing Temple yesterday talking about bevel up planes made me wonder why I have a standard and a low angle block plane.
Deneb Puchalski was really good to listen to and answered our questions with authority. He was making a great argument for bevel up planes and their versatility. His description of how easy the lead angle can be changed for different woods and grains was one I had heard before but I hadn't applied it to block planes. Why do I have two planes rather than just a low angle one with two blades? With one honed to 37 degrees and one to 25 don't I have most situations covered?
Have I got that right? If so, anyone want to buy a standard angle block plane!
Simon

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

If you only have one, it obviously should be the LA version and 2 blades with different honing angles. If you have 2 planes already, the blades can be honed both the same, to the optimum angle for the steel and ease of slicing through the wood. This is usually the 25 - 30 degrees, but not necessarily. The lower the angle the blade can be honed to, whilst still holding an edge, is the best scenario. And it saves changing blades, it is a bit easier to swap plane. If you hone secondary bevels, the lower angle hone will allow many more honings between grinding. Two is usually better then one!

Mike.

 

[Gunfleet]

Yes, Deneb has such a soft patient voice and is so clearly spoken you could use him to put babies to sleep. But he knows his stuff. I spent about fifteen minutes watching and listening and I would have liked to spend more, as I felt I was learning all the time.

 

[J_SAMa]

I shoot PINE endgrain with my Record No. 05, mouth set super tight (only the thinnest shavings can pass trhough) and cap iron set within 0.5 mm. Push the plane over the wood and out comes thin silvers of shavings (not dust). No problems at all, leaves a nice, dark finish (as long as the blade is sharp).
Maybe I shouldn't be saying this as I've never touched a BU at all. But if a bench plane can handle pine endgrain why would one need LA planes?

 

[yetloh]

. Why do I have two planes rather than just a low angle one with two blades?
Simon

It's obvious really, it's impossible to have too many block planes. Most times in doesn't really matter whether you use low or standard angle and if one goes dull you can just pick up the other without affecting your work rythm. When that goes dull you pick up the third! I have three, plus spare blades but wouldn't be averse to a fourth but perhaps I am just on the slope.

Jim

 

[Carl P]

'Just' on the slope? - I have two for the same reason, but maybe I need a third?... and to be on the safe side....

Cheerio,

Carl

 

[Jacob]

... Deneb has such a soft patient voice and is so clearly spoken you could use him to put babies to sleep. .....

or to persuade gullible woodworkers to part with their cash for things they don't need! :lol:

 

[woodbrains]

... Deneb has such a soft patient voice and is so clearly spoken you could use him to put babies to sleep. .....

or to persuade gullible woodworkers to part with their cash for things they don't need! :lol:

Hello,

Possibly sales schmooze, but I bet you have a LA block plane, Jacob. Logically, if you only have one plane, you will save some money with just a second blade that effectively gives you 2 planes.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

... Deneb has such a soft patient voice and is so clearly spoken you could use him to put babies to sleep. .....

or to persuade gullible woodworkers to part with their cash for things they don't need! :lol:

Hello,

Possibly sales schmooze, but I bet you have a LA block plane, Jacob. ..

I have. It's a Stanley 220. Very useful too.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Ahh, a 220 is a standard angle, so you won't have to put up with terrible tear out on long grain like you might get with a LA. Two blades would not be useful for a 220 unless you wanted to plane something so ornery a very high angle blade would be a help. Scrapers are dirt simple here, though.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

I suppose its cutting angle is 45º ish. I use it when one handed use is called for, or little jobs such as shaping tool handles or dowels. It's had a lot of use and is into its second blade.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I always recommend a low angle Block plane, you can always have two or three blades as come with our Quangsheng. This gives you all the effective cutting angles you may require. One advantage a high angle blade in a Block plane has over a cabinet scraper is it should keep your timber flatter over a larger area rather than just removing torn grain and replacing it with a low area in your work piece only seen as a hollow pond when polished.

 

[Jacob]

I still think the modern use of a block plane is a bit odd i.e. pressing into use as a general smoother.
As far as I am concerned it's really useful for one handed work (scribing edges, arrisses, trimming tenon ends etc) and secondly for end grain thanks to the low angle of BU blade assembly* which makes for a good firm compact one-handed grip.
Plenty of other planes for smoothing, which do it better, and are also not bad for endgrain.

*the 220 has this low angle even though the cutting angle is about 45.

PS the OP's point about having two blades/planes: a low angle frog at say 13º plus a blade honed even at 25º gives a cutting angle 38º which is so close to a standard 45º as to be not worth the bother. Add to that the difficulty of honing to 25º and keeping an edge, and the cap iron advantages of a normal plane - the low angle in general seems even more pointless - except for the compact shape. Large low angle planes don't even have this advantage!

 

[Vann]

*the 220 has this low angle even though the cutting angle is about 45.

The 220 is not a "low angle" block plane. The bed is set at 20º and so, when fitted with an iron honed at 25º, has a pitch of 45º (common pitch, as found on most bevel down planes). Or, if the iron is honed at a more normal 30º, has a pitch of 50º.

Veritas and Lie-Nielsen "low angle" block planes have the bed machined at 12º.

...gives a cutting angle 38º which is so close to a standard 45º as to be not worth the bother.

Steps of 5º are generally accepted as worthwhile, hence:
45º - common pitch;
50º - York pitch;
55º - cabinet or middle pitch;
60º - half pitch.

And Norris considered 2.5º was enough to "bother" about - they used 47.5º

HTH

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Jacob]

*the 220 has this low angle even though the cutting angle is about 45.

The 220 is not a "low angle" block plane.

Yes, but it is a low angle plane in that the frog angle is low, making for the compact shape, which is what makes it worthwhile, and is the point I'm making (of block planes in general)

....Steps of 5º are generally accepted as worthwhile, hence:
45º - common pitch;
50º - York pitch;
55º - cabinet or middle pitch;
60º - half pitch.

And Norris considered 2.5º was enough to "bother" about - they used 47.5º

HTH

Cheers, Vann.

That's 5 options! Who says "Steps of 5º are generally accepted as worthwhile"? It's generally accepted that most people manage with just 45º. If you really need them in reality these are easily obtainable by a quick bevel on the face. Except for the angles below 45º - but are these really necessary? I don't think so. It's just the usual voodoo with numbers (and helps to sell more tools!)

 

[Vann]

*the 220 has this low angle even though the cutting angle is about 45.

The 220 is not a "low angle" block plane.

Yes, but it is a low angle plane in that the frog angle is low, making for the compact shape, which is what makes it worthwhile, and is the point I'm making (of block planes in general)

I think you'll find that 20º is the normal angle for block planes. If you don't want to use standard terminology you're just going to confuse people. If you start calling a 20º a low angle block plane what are you going to call a low angle block plane - "super-dooper extra low angle", "Grimsdale pitch"? Better to stick with what the rest of the world calls them.

That's 5 options!

Yes, five.

Who says "Steps of 5º are generally accepted as worthwhile"? It's generally accepted that most people manage with just 45º.

So who says most people manage with just 45º?

If you really need them in reality these are easily obtainable by a quick bevel on the face.

You'd better tell the Aussies that. They often use angles as steep as 60º to tame tearout in their gnarly timbers. Maybe you should write to HT Gordon and tell him to stop making planes with 60º pitch planes because you believe that 45º is the only pitch needed, and that 5 recognised pitches are too many for you to get you head around.

But then, even if you knew you were wrong you wouldn't admit it (as proved in another thread).

Cheers, Vann.

 

[Jacob]

The 220 is not a "low angle" block plane.

Yes, but it is a low angle plane in that the frog angle is low, making for the compact shape, which is what makes it worthwhile, and is the point I'm making (of block planes in general)

I think you'll find that 20º is the normal angle for block planes. If you don't want to use standard terminology you're just going to confuse people. If you start calling a 20º a low angle block plane what are you going to call a low angle block plane - "super-dooper extra low angle", "Grimsdale pitch"? Better to stick with what the rest of the world calls them.........

The bog standard block plane like the 220 is a bevel-up low frog angle plane (actually 22º hence the name?). The point is, it's compact. That (and the small size) is the whole point of the block plane.

But then, even if you knew you were wrong you wouldn't admit it (as proved in another thread).

Which thread was that then? I deny it!

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Jacob, if you had a low angle block like a Stanley 60 1/2, you would find that the angle does make a fair bit of difference. Your 220 with a 30 deg bevel on the iron, approximates to something like a York pitch frog, so will actually do rather well on tricky grain. A true low angle block is something less than a common pitch, so the difference between the to is quite significant. That aside, the difference in cut is quite noticeable in use. So this is not just conjecture. If only a LA is available, 2 blades might be useful for overcoming tear out, though I would still have 2 planes as they are cheap enough.

I wholly agree that there are much better planes to use for ordinary planing tasks, though. I have said similar in another thread. I love a LA block for flushing dovetail pins, but seldom use a block at the bench for much else. There is always a smoother or a jack better suited to the job and close to hand. Even the odd chamfer is often done with a small smoother, since the work is in a vice and two hands can be used on the tool. On site this is not always the case, so a block is a boon.

Mike.

 

[David C]

Confusion over pitch angles can be avoided by referring to Effective Pitch. E P is the angle of the slope up which the shaving climbs in my jargon.

Jacob is misleading us again. His block plane can only have an E P of 45 degrees if he sharpens his blade at 25 degrees which he has stated to be difficult.

60 degree E P is an excellent angle for difficult home grown timbers. I frequently go to 70 degree E P for really intransigent, dense, interlocked exotics, like the wood from hell. Indian Laurel.

People do not get by with 45 degree E P when they venture into the fascinating world of Dense Exotic Timbers, they get massive and depressing tearout.

The low angle block planes lend a slight advantage when dealing with end grain, the standard angle goes better on long grain. In all cases excellent sharpening is one of the most important factors. At the weekend show I was persuading people to produce tissue like end grain shavings with both the low and standard angle block planes.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Jacob]

Confusion over pitch angles can be avoided by referring to Effective Pitch. E P is the angle of the slope up which the shaving climbs in my jargon.

Yes except that the emphasis on bevels distracts attention from the essential feature of block planes, which is nothing to do with cutting angles but is about the shape of the plane itself i.e. designed for one handed use.
Bevelomania also seems to blind people to the fact that the EP angle of "low angle" planes is not much lower than the standard 45º, which means they should really be called "lowish angle" planes, and are a bit pointless. This is why they were never that popular, until recently dragged from the back catalogue by modern makers. OK so they are good for end grain - but end grain is no problem anyway, given any sharp plane EP 45º.
So what else are they good for? Not smoothing obviously (higher the EP the more difficult the timber).