Corneel
Established Member
Oh yes? How do you sharpen a gouge?
Why Two?
- Thread starter Saint Simon
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
ere it wasn't me what brought up the subject it was Dave!
I must say the cover of the book does not bode well, I'm glad I gave it a miss!
I must say the cover of the book does not bode well, I'm glad I gave it a miss!
Corneel
Established Member
Sure. I suppose you can get a jig for each and every bit of steel that needs to be sharpened. I saw a draw knife sharpening jig a short while ago! Don't remember the price. You will quickly run out of money and storage space. I'd say, just say no to the jig. A certain amount of hand skills is neccessary for handtool woodworking anyway.
On second though, I agree about not calling the jig "training wheels". It doesn't fit, because the jig doesn't train anything. It is a crutch, not a training tool.
On second though, I agree about not calling the jig "training wheels". It doesn't fit, because the jig doesn't train anything. It is a crutch, not a training tool.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I'm getting outa here fast!
Corneel
Established Member
Ok. I'll only give advice. Buy whatever you want.
Advice: sharpening jigs are a dead end street.
Advice: sharpening jigs are a dead end street.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I'd second that.Corneel":3igpgjvy said:
It's not "badgering" it's "exchange of opinion". The badgering comes from the industry - we are endlessly badgered to buy loads of kit - a bit of counter badgering is surely a good thing.
Jacob":36exu1tp said:I'm getting outa here fast!
Look. You wouldn't expect a 10 year old to suck on a dummy, still be in nappies, training wheels on his/her bike or sharpen a blade using a guide!
At a certain age (6?) you just have to remove the guides!! Let them free!!
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Jacob":bjiksrcv said:
No, Jacob, most of the badgering comes from you. It never ends. People are sick of it. Can't you take a hint?
Cheers :wink:
Paul
iNewbie
Established Member
Corneel":3fzwfnus said:
The advice on this forum isn't relentlessly swaying people about buying what others deem as Prestige tools. It appears more so about relentless digs at supposed Guru's, not buying prestige tools and how you ain't a man because you choose to use a guide. And its one-mans mission here to make all that Groundhogg Day.
Corneel
Established Member
Good. Finally some reason on a woodworking forum. 8)
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
After you've been around for a while, you realise within reason who is worth paying attention to, and who is best ignored. Do as I do - read everything, remember the useful bits and forget the dross. No one's making anybody do anything .
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Aside from myriad moulding planes (both joinery and cabinet trades used them, so I'm not sure how some couldn't be included in a generic tool chest) tool chests of yesteryear would have contained, ploughs which had multiple blades, dado planes, one for each size encountered and having two blades each,dovetail planes, filisters, chamfer planes, side rebate planes which came in pairs.... Add the usual smoother, jack, try, fore, block, scrub just for preparing, dimensioning and smoothing flat stock. I don't think modern craftsmen can be acused of having too many planes, or too many blades for them. And please don't dare with a ' yebbut', because there are literally millions of old examples which prove without doubt that old craftsmen had dozens if not hundreds of planes in their kits. And they invented York pitch, middle pitch, half pitch and higher.
There are those who use exotic wood and need planes with different EP's than the common pitch in 'regular planes' so what if they need two or three irons to get the wood smooth? You can't do it with the usual tools and no amount of whining to the contrary will make it so. Stating that it wasn't done like that in the old days is tripe also, as the previous paragraph proves. But there are those who stick to local hardwoods. I have encountered twisty English elm that could not be planed with anything but a half pitch plane and likewise figured walnut. I have even had some really ornery English cherry which is usually fairly tame, but managed not to be planed with a common pitch smoother. ( before anyone dares, my planes are effing sharp and I was setting my cap irons super close 20+ years ago, because I found this out for myself) . So if we know how to use our tools and we have an armoury of good ones we can work any timber we ever encounter.
Finally, are books being judged by their covers lately?
Mike.
Aside from myriad moulding planes (both joinery and cabinet trades used them, so I'm not sure how some couldn't be included in a generic tool chest) tool chests of yesteryear would have contained, ploughs which had multiple blades, dado planes, one for each size encountered and having two blades each,dovetail planes, filisters, chamfer planes, side rebate planes which came in pairs.... Add the usual smoother, jack, try, fore, block, scrub just for preparing, dimensioning and smoothing flat stock. I don't think modern craftsmen can be acused of having too many planes, or too many blades for them. And please don't dare with a ' yebbut', because there are literally millions of old examples which prove without doubt that old craftsmen had dozens if not hundreds of planes in their kits. And they invented York pitch, middle pitch, half pitch and higher.
There are those who use exotic wood and need planes with different EP's than the common pitch in 'regular planes' so what if they need two or three irons to get the wood smooth? You can't do it with the usual tools and no amount of whining to the contrary will make it so. Stating that it wasn't done like that in the old days is tripe also, as the previous paragraph proves. But there are those who stick to local hardwoods. I have encountered twisty English elm that could not be planed with anything but a half pitch plane and likewise figured walnut. I have even had some really ornery English cherry which is usually fairly tame, but managed not to be planed with a common pitch smoother. ( before anyone dares, my planes are effing sharp and I was setting my cap irons super close 20+ years ago, because I found this out for myself) . So if we know how to use our tools and we have an armoury of good ones we can work any timber we ever encounter.
Finally, are books being judged by their covers lately?
Mike.
Corneel
Established Member
Yup, completely agree. The old guys used to have loads of planes. Not sure about a scrub plus a jack plus a fore, but that's nit picking.
And my little shed is a bit overcrowded too. (I don't really need 5 smoothers of course, but they are just so cute, and they were so cheap).
I am not quite sure about the higher pitched planes, after the double iron took over the market. You almost never find them. The Germans have their 50 degree reformhobel, and most infills are about 47,5. But do you ever see a higher pitched bench plane? They're not mentioned in any of the catalogues either. It seems half pitch was only used in moulding planes. You can plane a lot of awfull wood with a sharp blade and a rediculous close set chipbreaker. I've done pretty wild versions of wallnut and maple without too much trouble. The little bits of tearout left are dealed with with a card scraper.
So that's something I wonder about.
And my little shed is a bit overcrowded too. (I don't really need 5 smoothers of course, but they are just so cute, and they were so cheap).
I am not quite sure about the higher pitched planes, after the double iron took over the market. You almost never find them. The Germans have their 50 degree reformhobel, and most infills are about 47,5. But do you ever see a higher pitched bench plane? They're not mentioned in any of the catalogues either. It seems half pitch was only used in moulding planes. You can plane a lot of awfull wood with a sharp blade and a rediculous close set chipbreaker. I've done pretty wild versions of wallnut and maple without too much trouble. The little bits of tearout left are dealed with with a card scraper.
So that's something I wonder about.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Well a jack and a scrub are totally different and have distinct jobs. I think they work as a team, if rough timber is worked by hand. I'm not saying every craftsman had all the planes on the list, but neither is the list comprehensive. What would substitute a fore? A panel plane, or would we leave a hole in the arsenal? The whole point is, complaining that having a couple of extra irons for a plane is extravagant or has never been done before modern times is just plain daft.
We also have to factor in that in real terms good tools were more expensive back in the day, than premium tools cost now. I don't see any extravagance if it is pleasurable and gets the job done.
High pitched planes may have been rarer, but they existed and had names for the pitches. I don't think setting the cap iron close is a modern discovery, either. Whatever works and when is not over egging the pudding and those who encounter the tools that work and can reason why should not be ridiculed.
Mike.
Well a jack and a scrub are totally different and have distinct jobs. I think they work as a team, if rough timber is worked by hand. I'm not saying every craftsman had all the planes on the list, but neither is the list comprehensive. What would substitute a fore? A panel plane, or would we leave a hole in the arsenal? The whole point is, complaining that having a couple of extra irons for a plane is extravagant or has never been done before modern times is just plain daft.
We also have to factor in that in real terms good tools were more expensive back in the day, than premium tools cost now. I don't see any extravagance if it is pleasurable and gets the job done.
High pitched planes may have been rarer, but they existed and had names for the pitches. I don't think setting the cap iron close is a modern discovery, either. Whatever works and when is not over egging the pudding and those who encounter the tools that work and can reason why should not be ridiculed.
Mike.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
The fact that there are thousands of different old tools in existence does not mean that they were all used by all craftsmen. There were also thousands ( well hundreds perhaps) of different wood trades, all with different needs.
Tool collections "tool chests" can also be misleading too, many of them seem to be just that - "collections" and not necessarily used, then as now.
PS I've taken woodbrain's advice and bought a Stanley 60 1/2 (ebay) - just to prove that I do listen.
PPS Finally, are books being judged by their covers lately? Well that one is! Really off-putting IMHO. Not for me.
Tool collections "tool chests" can also be misleading too, many of them seem to be just that - "collections" and not necessarily used, then as now.
PS I've taken woodbrain's advice and bought a Stanley 60 1/2 (ebay) - just to prove that I do listen.
PPS Finally, are books being judged by their covers lately? Well that one is! Really off-putting IMHO. Not for me.
lanemaux
In Memorium
Hi Jacob. Actually I own a copy of the Lee book on sharpening and would like to state that I found it a good read. It is a well illustrated and informative treatise on sharpening for the non-sharpener to learn methods from. Since I was always into sharp knives , that section was not of great use to me , as I had my own methods. However when I got the book I didn't know a frog was part of a tool. My chisel was for removing bits of cement. For me it was a learning experience because it showed what surfaces of a tool to sharpen without ruining them through ignorance. The book covers a lot of ground as well. Drills ,scissors ,saws ,lawn and garden tools just a whack of information. Pick a copy up , it may surprise you.
Corneel
Established Member
Those high pitched bench planes are a bit of mystery for me. Before the chipbreaker gained widespread acceptance (around 1800) you can see some references about them. But later? I know about the names york pitch, half pitch etc. But were they also used for bench planes? Molding planes at high angles are quite common. Even I have some half pitch hollow and rounds. But you never seem to find high pitched single iron planes from the 19th century.
PS, the inventors of the chipbreaker (double iron, capiron...) knew very well how to use it, very close to the edge. So that's certainly not new knowledge. They used it for difficult grain and raved about it. Nicholson also describes how he feels the effect of the double iron (harder to push) and sees the result in difficult grain, so he must have known how to use it.
PS, the inventors of the chipbreaker (double iron, capiron...) knew very well how to use it, very close to the edge. So that's certainly not new knowledge. They used it for difficult grain and raved about it. Nicholson also describes how he feels the effect of the double iron (harder to push) and sees the result in difficult grain, so he must have known how to use it.
richarnold
Established Member
19th century wooden smoothing planes with a higher pitch are something I have found on numerous occasions in the past. I have a matching pair in the workshop now They are by the same maker (Buck I think) and are identical. same owners stamp, and from one tool chest. I can only presume the owner had a lot of difficult wood to plane to require two matching planes!. I have to say that although I have come across high angled coffin smoothers in the past I can't remember seeing a try plane with a higher pitch, but I will be at the David Stanley auction tomorrow so I can start looking!
