bugbear
Established Member
Jacob":1zso7nuo said:
Leonard Lee begs to differ - with evidence, not assertions.
BugBear
Why Two?
- Thread starter Saint Simon
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Leonard Lee begs to differ - with evidence, not assertions.
BugBear
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Of course it is quite possible to plane end grain with high EP planes. I had (stupidly gave away to my regret) a HNT Gordon shoulder plane with an EP of 60 deg. It's main purpose was end grain, which it handled well enough. It had the advantage of being a good rebate plane too and it's high EP give it an advantage of being fairly tolerant to grain direction changes, which is not easily dealt with in a rebate.
However, there is a definite advantage of a Low EP for end grain. It could be noticed that the effort to push the plane and the surface finish was improved as the EP was lowered. Provided the blade is super sharp, the high EP worked, and you might not need to worry about anything else. I find a low EP is great for super hard exotics and perversely really soft open grained softwood. It is the middle ground where the differences are less noticeable.
Mike.
Of course it is quite possible to plane end grain with high EP planes. I had (stupidly gave away to my regret) a HNT Gordon shoulder plane with an EP of 60 deg. It's main purpose was end grain, which it handled well enough. It had the advantage of being a good rebate plane too and it's high EP give it an advantage of being fairly tolerant to grain direction changes, which is not easily dealt with in a rebate.
However, there is a definite advantage of a Low EP for end grain. It could be noticed that the effort to push the plane and the surface finish was improved as the EP was lowered. Provided the blade is super sharp, the high EP worked, and you might not need to worry about anything else. I find a low EP is great for super hard exotics and perversely really soft open grained softwood. It is the middle ground where the differences are less noticeable.
Mike.
I don't bother too much about EP and certainly not when it comes to block planes. The exception is for difficult grain and if I am facing that I just reach for a little 60 deg EP plane without even considering a block plane. It works for me and that is all that matters.
Jim
Jim
woodbrains
Established Member
yetloh":2c2bn6yo said:
Hello,
And if someone doesn't have a 60deg EP plane, they can effectively get one with a higher bevel on a LA block or a back bevel on their BD planes!
What is your 60 EP plane. A custom job or a HNT Aussie thing or what?
Mike.
David C
In Memorium
Well a 15 degree back bevel in a bench plane is one easy way.
David
David
woodbrains":1gc34l7u said:
Mike,
Its the lowliest of Holteys - an 11S with boxwood infill and no adjuster, a lovely little thing. The blade can be reversed, turning it into a scraper plane if the going gets really tough but I don't often find it necessary. I do also have an HNT Gordon high angle smoother which is somewhat bigger but I rarely use it these days - I find I generally prefer to work on a small area at a time for which the 11S is ideal. However. I do realise I'm in a pretty fortunate position and I am sure that your suggested solution would work well, as would David's.
Jim
woodbrains
Established Member
David C":193lwvwa said:
Hello,
Of course, David, I think I said a much!
yetloh":193lwvwa said:
NICE! :mrgreen:
Mike.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I just wondered - this Len Lee geezer, he's not a tool salesman by any chance is he? Keen on us buying a lot of planes, and multiple blades to go with them? (5 bevels thats 5 blades per plane at £30 ish say 3 planes that's, er, £450 not counting the planes themselves another £600 ish) say £1000 on block planes alone? :shock: :shock: :lol:bugbear":2fs8zena said:
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Leonard Lee owns the company that makes good planes (amongst other things) because Stanley have made lousy ones for years. I suppose he can hardly be blamed for wanting to sell a few. No one makes anyone buy lots of blades for them, though. They work supremely well as they are. The concept that adding a blade effectively gives you two planes, thus saving money, seems to be elusive to some.
Mike.
Leonard Lee owns the company that makes good planes (amongst other things) because Stanley have made lousy ones for years. I suppose he can hardly be blamed for wanting to sell a few. No one makes anyone buy lots of blades for them, though. They work supremely well as they are. The concept that adding a blade effectively gives you two planes, thus saving money, seems to be elusive to some.
Mike.
David C
In Memorium
Leonard Lee's book on sharpening is one of the best ever written and Jacob would learn a thing or two if he bothered to read it.
I don't know what we are supposed to learn from Jacob's ludicrous fantasy post?
David
I don't know what we are supposed to learn from Jacob's ludicrous fantasy post?
David
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
It's supposed to be a comment on the modern trend whereby information on woodworking is so often to be linked to buying something expensive and the denigration of older (and cheaper) methods/tools. That's all!
I'm thinking of putting it on a DVD :lol:
PS And I am particularly interested in traditional ways, where so much is done with so little.
I'm thinking of putting it on a DVD :lol:
PS And I am particularly interested in traditional ways, where so much is done with so little.
Corneel
Established Member
I'm sure you're gona be extremely rich from that video. :lol:
In all the talk about high angle planes, and exotic timbers, some people seem to forget that is the absolute exception in these parts of the world. For European woods, and for a lot of tropical species too, you'll be fine with a cheap 45 degree plane. In a bench plane you'll always have the chipbreaker to help with reversing grain situations, and a scraper plus a piece of fine sandpaper for the last few bits of tearout..
For a block plane I almost only use a low angle one. And I only use it for small onehanded stuff. Everything else and I prefer a bench plane by far. Especially endgrain is easier with a bench plane. When I get a bit of tearout with the block plane, I'll turn the plane around. And I won't find me in a situation very often where I "need" two or three sharpened blades at the ready. Planing with a block plane is usually for small stuff, a little here or there. Not enough the dull the blade quick enough to warant all the spare blades.
In all the talk about high angle planes, and exotic timbers, some people seem to forget that is the absolute exception in these parts of the world. For European woods, and for a lot of tropical species too, you'll be fine with a cheap 45 degree plane. In a bench plane you'll always have the chipbreaker to help with reversing grain situations, and a scraper plus a piece of fine sandpaper for the last few bits of tearout..
For a block plane I almost only use a low angle one. And I only use it for small onehanded stuff. Everything else and I prefer a bench plane by far. Especially endgrain is easier with a bench plane. When I get a bit of tearout with the block plane, I'll turn the plane around. And I won't find me in a situation very often where I "need" two or three sharpened blades at the ready. Planing with a block plane is usually for small stuff, a little here or there. Not enough the dull the blade quick enough to warant all the spare blades.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Simplicity is good and the fewer tools to do a job also good. If a well set up plane obviates a power sander, how is that more complicated? Most modern plane variants are just copies or versions of planes that were once common in the Stanley catalogue or had a wooden predecessor. have you looked at how many woodies were needed by a craftsman 150 years ago. 12 is just a half set of hollows and rounds with thier accompanying snipe bills. I reckon a tool chest would have upwards of 50 woodies in a craftsmans kit.
Mike.
Simplicity is good and the fewer tools to do a job also good. If a well set up plane obviates a power sander, how is that more complicated? Most modern plane variants are just copies or versions of planes that were once common in the Stanley catalogue or had a wooden predecessor. have you looked at how many woodies were needed by a craftsman 150 years ago. 12 is just a half set of hollows and rounds with thier accompanying snipe bills. I reckon a tool chest would have upwards of 50 woodies in a craftsmans kit.
Mike.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Only if specialising in mouldings. There isn't a generic "craftsman's kit" there are lots of different trades. Most woodworking has no complicated mouldings. I've just been reading "From Tree to Sea".woodbrains":1hcumxu5 said:
BTW what does Len Lee say abt ordinary chisel/plane sharpening? Is he into freehand etc or a committed training wheeler?
I'm not going to buy the book to find out.
iNewbie
Established Member
Why does it matter -to some- how many tools someone else owns. I don't worry about the amount of toilets in Buckingham Palace... Do what you do with what you, have.
Corneel
Established Member
That's not quite the point Newbie. Everyone should do whatever they fancy. It's about what kind of advice you give on a woodworking forum. If the advice always is to buy something expensive for each and every new problem, it'll add up quickly.
Corneel
Established Member
JacobBTW what does Len Lee say abt ordinary chisel/plane sharpening? Is he into freehand etc or a committed training wheeler? I'm not going to buy the book to find out.[/quote said:When you look at the front page, it seems like training wheels have an important place in the book.
Racers
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Why call them "training wheels" if its not about recommending expensive options why be nasty about honing jigs?
Can't people just use what ever then need to sharpen? why should then be pressurised into free hand sharpening?
Pete
Can't people just use what ever then need to sharpen? why should then be pressurised into free hand sharpening?
Pete
Corneel
Established Member
We allready went through this a couple of weeks before. Freehand sharpening is a neccessary skill for every woodworker who wants to sharpen anything more then normal chisles and plane blades. Because it is a neccessary skill, it makes the jig a training device.
