Why is this dangerous kit being advertised on here?

[Cabinetman]

I know this topic has been done to death already but we don’t need members having life altering injuries because they bought these inherently dangerous push blocks and misnamed push sticks. They bring your hand too close to the blade or cutter. Please don’t buy them!

 

[sometimewoodworker]

I know this topic has been done to death already but we don’t need members having life altering injuries because they bought these inherently dangerous push blocks and misnamed push sticks. They bring your hand too close to the blade or cutter. Please don’t buy them!

While your statement may be true, I don’t know if it is actually true or just an opinion that is influenced by the way you work or were trained.

So giving examples of how they are so bad would be educational as I don’t see how they are so dangerous used on a planer as they seem designed for.

 

[Steliz]

One of them is just a featherboard, what's the problem with them?

 

[Ttrees]

450mm is the suggested minimum length for a push stick to use on a tablesaw.
That plastic thing shouldn't be for sale.
They should clearly specify that it won't comply with UK regs.

 

[Lons]

I don’t see how they are so dangerous used on a planer as they seem designed for.

So at the very least they should be clearly marked for use only on a surface planer.
They're advertised as push sticks and there are US videos on youtube showuing them being used on tablesaws which is exactly what the inexperienced and uninitiated will use them for.
The last thing needed is to add to the sizeable numbers of lost limb attendees at A&E departments the majority of which are caused by table and bench circular saws. Estimated to be tens of thousands p.a.

 

[Against_The_Grain]

That's a question for the advertiser, @Peter Sefton

 

[Doug71]

I have noticed the advert before and thought it didn't look good for Wood Workers Workshop. If you click the link it does show someone using the "Safety Kit" on an unguarded saw

 

[ChaiLatte]

They should clearly specify that it won't comply with UK regs.

The 450mm length comes from an HSE Approved code of Practice that has teeth when the Health and Safety at Work Act covers your activities. The crucial words in 'Health and Safety at Work Act' are "at work".

If I choose to use the device in my shed at home, I am not "at work".

Should Estwing stop selling hammers because they do not comply with UK regs. relating to working in an explosive environment? The idea that vendors should state what regulations their products do not comply with is unworkable.

 

[TRITON]

 

[bp122]

I only started the hobby 4 years ago. Got a table saw and was seduced by all sorts of "fancy" push blocks like the ones shown and the likes of Microjig ones.

But after playing around with them, rather luckily, the only ones I used were the long arm kind which I made myself. Then sold the table saw and only use the bandsaw now, with the same long arm push sticks.

I completely agree that those push blocks are an accident waiting to happen. And whether the regulations are for when one's at work or not, the important thing to note is that it won't hurt any less if you get into a table saw blade when it's spinning wither you are at home or work.

 

[Spectric]

They should clearly specify that it won't comply with UK regs.

In a home workshop the only responsible body for your safety is you, there is no one else to blame if you make the choice to use some tool or accessory and cause injury to part of yourself. As @ChaiLatte has said the clue is in the the Health and Safety at Work Act.

We have to accept that there are different working practices on the two sides of the pond and just because someone is doing something in the states that is dangerous to our way of working we do not have to copy.

The only thing that Milescraft is showing that I would not use is that push stick, that 90° angle handle is just wrong and I want a much shallower angle and more distance between me and those teeth. When you think about how many videos you see with no crown guard then this becomes really dangerous.

 

[HOJ]

used on tablesaws which is exactly what the inexperienced and uninitiated will use them for

I find the advertising of any of these things disconcerting, As @Lons said, the market isn't for "professionals" the temptation to buy and try at a price that wont break the bank, is almost encouraging people to take risks, the picture @Doug71 refers to, and I admit I have to do some risky cuts sometimes, even scares me.

 

[ChaiLatte]

It might be educational to see what length push sticks are supplied by the OEMs when buying a saw.

Starter for 10 (digits, retention thereof): Makita MLT100. Overall length 410mm. Distance from heel to thumb when holding it 250mm.

Fastcap sold by B&Q noted as 300mm long.

Axminster Workshop push stick noted as 42.5cm long

Trend pushstick 42cm long.

Bow Products (Axminster) 460mm

So four out of five above do not meet the 450mm minimum.

 

[Jacob]

It might be educational to see what length push sticks are supplied by the OEMs when buying a saw.

Starter for 10 (digits, retention thereof): Makita MLT100. Overall length 410mm. Distance from heel to thumb when holding it 250mm.

Fastcap sold by B&Q noted as 300mm long.

Axminster Workshop push stick noted as 42.5cm long

Trend pushstick 42cm long.

Bow Products (Axminster) 460mm

So four out of five above do not meet the 450mm minimum.

Yebbut there is no "correct" length, it's just that longer is better but too long becomes cumbersome and less practical.
450 just a helpful suggestion and in fact if you always use two push sticks about that length the chance of getting cut is vanishingly small.
I agree about the grabbers etc - could make things dangerous by having to reach over the workpiece and the exposed cutters. but still safer than hands only I guess.
Feather board OK if you like expensive gadgets - but easy to make your own

 

[Jacob]

I have noticed the advert before and thought it didn't look good for Wood Workers Workshop. If you click the link it does show someone using the "Safety Kit" on an unguarded saw

Yes the vid is appalling. In one bit the berk is using both a grabber and a featherboard, but still pushing the workpiece through with his bare hand! He's completely missed the point - nul points!!
Ludicrous!

 

[Lons]

The fact that home workers aren't covered by HSE is a red herring, those of us who are experienced have a moral responsibility on open forums to point out when things are unsafe which is exactly what Cabinetman said, remember we have no idea how many inexperienced people are viewing these pages without being a member.
Yes the ultimate choice is down to the user but we really shouldn't be endorsing or condoning bad practice. The comments by BP122 are a prime example of how new users can be badly influenced.

EDIT

Should Estwing stop selling hammers because they do not comply with UK regs.

A rather silly comparison. If you're going to hit yourself with a hammer, and most of us have, it's going to hurt, you might even do some damage but it certainly makes no difference which brand of hammer you're using. You certainly aren'tat risk of losing your limbs specifically by using that brand ot type. I do btw use several Estwing hammers and did so on a professional level.

I've bought items from Peter, and met him at shows and he's a decent helpful guy so I'm surprised at him using that video unless it's a condition of supply.

 

[TRITON]

I've a bit of an update on some info I put in a post. It was about a friend of my nephews who lost a lower leg with an industrial tree surgeons wood/branch chipper.

Round at Sis's for Xmas, I got the full story off the nephews. It wasn't a wood chipper, because from the story and them not knowing the difference between the chipper and what the machine actually was, in this case it was in fact a stump grinder and not a wood chipper., thats where the confusion arose.
They had a little vid of how a tree grinder works and via YT one doing it's stuff I can understand now how it caught his leg and it wasnt as I thought involving lifting your leg into the hopper and pushing at the blockage. My misinterpretation.

So that clears that. It wasnt a chipper, it was a stump grinder

They then decided to show me the pics of what happens if a fully speeding stump grinder that looks to be doing 5000rpm and is in effect a very big dado cutter, you can imagine whats going to happen if it gets a hold of the bottom of your trouser leg.

They had pics of that too as we say in Glasgow, The Full Bhoona

As a ex butcher I would say that was mincemeat and a lot of it. Im surprised they saved any of his leg. Looked like the type of injury normally accompanying standing on an IED

We post pics of a cut with a few stitches to ones of partly missing fingers, but this would have had dear Adam looking for something to throw up in. Calf muscle destroyed, upper thigh not completely destroyed but what could best be described as a deep furrow running up it 4"+ wide. Some horrendous injuries.
This is just to clarify, because I made light of it but the injury was such that wasnt fair.

So have a 'lets be careful in the year to come' everybody new year

 

[Against_The_Grain]

I think the crux of the problem is that practically everything online regarding woodworking is very heavily influenced by Americans who generally have a completely different woodworking culture to the British especially when it comes to power tools, even this forum is American-owned despite being "UKWorkshop". I think you would struggle to find one British Woodworker for every ten American ones on the likes of Youtube, Instagram, TikTok, etc... and because of this massive presence, newer British woodworkers who watch videos and read articles from America are influenced and biased towards American working practices and will seek out what they have seen in use, with many of these "influencers" actually being sponsored by companies like Milescraft and Grr-ripper. This is why you have companies like @Peter Sefton's who are quite happy to supply this equipment because there's a large demand for them here, even if the actual safety aspect of the equipment is questionable and indeed encourages hands to be far too close to blades compared to the traditional birdsmouth push stick. Should there be a duty of care to point out when something that you're paying a premium for is substandard and could cause life-changing irreversible damage? If someone is making an informed choice, this is fine, however many will be those who know very little such as beginner woodworkers who are the most likely to buy a set like this.

Interestingly a selling point for another product on the store, the "PushPRO" is that "the 460mm long PushPro conforms with UK and European standards".

Bow Products PushPRO Push Stick | Wood Workers Workshop

North America has been behind with safety standards for woodworking equipment for decades as compared to British and European standards, they still produce and use very dangerous equipment, particularly when it comes to rotating cutters like cutter blocks for spindle moulding machines, router bits, planer heads, etc... As many American manufacturers make no attempt to produce chip-limiting designs that increase the safety aspect dramatically. An example would be comparing Byrd's Shelix helical cutterheads to the likes of SCM's Xylent or Felder's Silent-Power cutter heads, the Shelix is a very dangerous design as there is no chip-limiting which could result in a serious kickback or could even pull your hand into the cutter rather than pushing it away as with a chip-limiting design.

 

[Spectric]

All to easy if you do not have the experience of using machinery and are not wearing appropriate PPE, ie decent boots with no flappy trousers. He was really lucky as he did not bleed to death because there are some big pipes in the legs but it shows how life can change in the blink of an eye.

Being an industrial machine was it on hire ?

 

[Spectric]

If you are in control then you also take responsibility and safety has to start with the individual, you cannot make tools and machinery 100% safe without either taking the blades out or cutting the power lead to prevent operation. The safety measures put in place are not there to make the machine safe, they are there to reduce the risk of an accident from occuring because even with all guards in place the cutting device has to be exposed to get the workpiece to it and the machine does not care if it is wood or flesh.

The push sticks being sold, state that

"The PushPRO Push Stick delivers a better cut than plastic-only push stick. The ergonomically designed long handle can also be unclipped and replaced with shop-made timber replacement for any special situations, the 460mm long PushPro conforms with UK and European standards."

So they are long and whether you feel they are safe is down to ergonomics but for some they will be ok whilst for others they will not so just don't use them if you feel unsafe and something to bear in mind is the STAR mindset.

Stop, Think, Act and Review which means to stop and think before doing then ask yourself could you have done it even safer.

North America has been behind with safety standards for woodworking equipment for decades

But when compared to the gun culture they have then it shifts safety to a different level and perception.