Which Handsaw - confused terminology!

[ByronBlack]

HI all galoots,

I've been searching around the web for a saw that will allow me to cut this profile:

Thats a side view, and the material i need to cut it in is 3" square beech. I don't want to do this with a power-tool so I need to know which saw is the best option.

I've ready so many conflicting websites that I thought I should try my luck here.

Do I need a; bowsaw, framesaw or coping saw for such a cut? I was looking at the ones from Rutlands, they do a smallish framesaw:

http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/DKRV2

But with the blade that thick, would it be able to cut that curve? Also, if I were to use a coping saw, would the blade be good enough to go through tough beech?

If it is a bowsaw or framesaw I need, other than rutlands is there a good place in this country to get one?

Thanks for looking.
BB

Oh.. and a random question, is there a handtool that will allow me to make dowels from square stock?

 

[Johnboy]

Your avatar is a triton router so I presume you have one. Make a ply template, rough out as close to the line as you can get with ordinary hand saws and complete with a bearing guided cutter and the template. you would have to work from both sides for a 3" thickness and the sharp corner on the top profile would need hand finishing but without a bandsaw that is how I would do it.

John

Ps. forgot to say that to make the dowels you need a dowel plate, LN sell a posh one but for a few a steel plate with holes in would do.

 

[ByronBlack]

HI John,

Thanks for the suggestion, but i'm determined to learn how to do these type of things with hand-tools only, but if worst comes to worst then your suggestion is definitly a good backup, cheers!

 

[bugbear]

HI all galoots,

I've been searching around the web for a saw that will allow me to cut this profile:

Bowsaw is a generic term, covering several sins. Several crafts use the term bowsaw, and within that craft it's not ambiguous.

However, what you need is a saw with a narrow blade, held on the outside of the saw (as opposed the the middle of the saw - a "framesaw").

The saw you need is most specifically called a "turning saw" (which is a true subclass of "bowsaw").

You may find this page (mine!) helpful:

http://www.geocities.com/plybench/bowsaw.html

BugBear

 

[Scrit]

Of course, Byron, what you might need is a large hollow plane for the outside and a round for the inside, plane up in pairs then rip down the components? Great job for a bandsaw, or it's precursor the bow saw I'd say because coping saws are a bit flimsy for thick timber and frame saws a bit big, although you can still get a German frame saw for the big stuff:

That's an Ulmia turning saw with a 600mm blade length (possibly a bit too big?). I don't know where you'd get a modern bow saw from, Marples made them until 20 years back but where they come from now is anybody's guess. As you're on the self-sufficiency path you could always make your own.

Scrit

 

[bugbear]

http://www.toolpost.co.uk/pages/Woodwor ... ml#Bowsaws

http://www.crownhandtools.ltd.uk/products/bowsaw.asp

BugBear

 

[ByronBlack]

ah, thats more like it :lol:

BB - I was at your site not 30mins ago, it's part of the reason I asked here because i then saw (no pun intended) others saw on different sites with the same name.. terribly confusing!

Scrit - i think I just noticed that saw on the fine-tools website, seems like it might do the trick.. would it be possible to stack a couple of the pieces needing to be cut and do them at the same time, or is it best to one at a time? I don't know how accurate these are?

 

[Scrit]

.......would it be possible to stack a couple of the pieces needing to be cut and do them at the same time, or is it best to one at a time? I don't know how accurate these are?

They have quite a long stroke and so can cut quite quickly, but I'm really not sure if they are used for stacked work. I've only ever used the fleam-tooth variant (for sawing large tenons as it happens).

The suggestion od using planes isn't tongue in cheek, either, then there are other ways, such as saw off the waste and carve the shapes with carving chisels/Surforms/spokeshaves. That's the nice thing about woodworking. There's often more than one way to do a job.

Scrit

 

[woodbloke]

BB - Johnboy has it in one. Use whatever the most appropriate saw is to get close to the line, then make an accurate template and top-bearing cut it to profile.....this may well only give you about half the depth so you need so turn the timber over and use a bottom-bearing cutter to finish the profile. Then use a chisel to clean up the corner. Doing it the handraulic way is all very laudable but not something I'd want to do in thickish beech - Rob

 

[ByronBlack]

Your right their scrit, always a number of ways to skin a cat, it's just a difficult thing for someone like me to decide on the best approach.

I was thinking of using the saw to rough out the profile, and use a fine-cut rasp to clean-up, as i'm thinking a hollow/round might be a bit agressive going cross-grain? Again, i'm only speculating as i've never used one before.

Also, just had a thought, how do you make a bow-saw without a bow-saw? Them curves look tricky!

 

[Scrit]

Also, just had a thought, how do you make a bow-saw without a bow-saw? Them curves look tricky!

Errrr... with a bandsaw? This problem must have occurred in the past because I've seen a number of bow saws which had what looked like factory-turned handles/knobs and brass blade holders (although the "pins" were just panel pins bent over and snipped off) but where the rest of the saw was home made and quite plain, so I suspect that the manufacturers also sold "kits". The H-frame is made from straight stock in any case so the shaping could even be done on a router table :roll: .... or with your rasps, files, spokeshaves and Surforms?

Scrit

 

[Paul Chapman]

Rather than trying to cut out the lower piece, why not try a different approach - shape a thinner piece and glue it on. That would deal with the lower, central piece of shaping. The upper piece could be shaped by ploughing a groove and then forming the curve with a hand plane and sand paper on a curved block.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[ByronBlack]

Paul, that is ingenious!

However, I just purchased a bowsaw! Got a good deal at my favourite site: oldtools.co.uk. I got a marples bowsaw with a bunch of blades for about £35! Bargain!

However, I like your thinking with regards to the bottom part, i think i'll go ahead with that idea, and use the bow-saw and sandpaper/spokeshave etc to form the main curve... although you have given me an excellent excuse to by a plough plane - I could use that for the ply tongues aswell..

 

[pam niedermayer]

Most any saw will handle these cuts. Mark your desired shape, cut straight down from board edge to the marks at regular intervals (straight and regular are intended to be used approximately), knock the sections off with a hefty chisel, then finish up with spokeshave, rasp, or file.

Pam

 

[Anonymous]

This the foot of your workbench?
If you hadn't bought the saw you could cut in the top straight bit with a tenon saw at rightangles and chisel off the waste. Then rough out the shape with a series of straight tangent saw cuts, then tidy up with a nice sharp chisel and sandpaper. Similar for the bottom but you'd need a gouge or a big round rasp for inside the curve. Finish with sandpaper round a bit of dowel.
Best to mark up both sides first with pencil around a template then basically you join up the lines with whatever kit you have.

cheers
Jacob
Oops sorry just seen that Pam is saying the same thing. There you go then!

 

[ByronBlack]

Pam, Mr G.

The very technique you mentioned was discounted by myself today when i tried the same thing with terrible results, I think it's partly due to having poor quality rasps/files (they're cheap ones) and my spoke-shaves in dire need of new blades/fettling. Trying to go cross-grain on the rough beach (after saw-kerfs were knocked away with a chisel) seemed to cause so much chatter that the shaves was just bouncing rather than cutting.

Buying the saw was a needed purchase anyway, because prior to the purchase, I had no way of cutting curves, so it'll prove useful in many up-coming projects.

I have large gaps in my toolkit which I need to address, and I posted about files/rasps before, and have a shopping list ready to action on, hopefully they'll make jobs like these more simple.

 

[Benchwayze]

If you must work by hand Byron, why not make separate feet and mortice them to the bottom rail? it wouldn't involve too much variation from your curves and would be far less tiring in solid beech. Such feet would keep your bench firm and 'rock-free' just as well.

Just out of curiosity, I am interested in why you are so hardline on handwork. At the same time, I am sure you are aware who invented the circular saw?

Good luck
John

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi John, I wouldn't say I was 'hardline' with regards to handwork, it's just that all the projects i've done so far have been primarily power-based, and one of the reasons why I got into the hobby was to learn the traditional ways and to slow down, take my time and work quietly and thoughtfully using only power-tools for the essentials (like milling).

I get a lot more satisfaction out of doing handwork than I do using power-tools ever since I went on a cabinet making course and learnt how to do dovetails by hand - to me, I get a lot more pride out of completing something by hand rather than using jigs/gadgets all the time, and this is a projects that I want to be an inspiration to me aswell as a useful tool.

 

[Anonymous]

Pam, Mr G.

The very technique you mentioned was discounted by myself today when i tried the same thing with terrible results, I think it's partly due to having poor quality rasps/files (they're cheap ones) and my spoke-shaves in dire need of new blades/fettling. Trying to go cross-grain on the rough beach (after saw-kerfs were knocked away with a chisel) seemed to cause so much chatter that the shaves was just bouncing rather than cutting.

Buying the saw was a needed purchase anyway, because prior to the purchase, I had no way of cutting curves, so it'll prove useful in many up-coming projects.

I have large gaps in my toolkit which I need to address, and I posted about files/rasps before, and have a shopping list ready to action on, hopefully they'll make jobs like these more simple.

No place for a spokeshave anyway ida thought. Actually Surform, one of the cheapest makes of rasp is probably best for this i.e. flat one for outer curve and round one for inner. But personally I'd use it as an excuse to buy a few gouges.

cheers
Jacob
PS something I keep meaning to add to this sort of thread - you would very likely do better spending money on wood rather than tools and get in a lot of practice even if you end up with firewood. Don't be frightened about spoiling a lot of wood, in the long run it'll pay for itself (and keep the fire burning ) :lol:

 

[ByronBlack]

Hi Jacob,

I've just bought a couple of semi-decent but not expensive rasps, so this should give better results than the cheap nasty screwfix ones I was trying to use today.

Funny you should mention a surform, again, it's probably because mine was a cheap modern stanley, but i tried it on a similar task a few months/years ago and was so disapointed by the spelching I was getting, that I quickly placed it in the bin.

I agree with you regards money on wood, thats why i'm only buying some essential hand-tools, I would rather do that and get a bunch of wood than buy another expensive power-tool/machine. At the end of the day practice is great, but you still need a working tool to practice with, I've made the mistake in the past by buying utter rubbish and not being able to practice properly, but hopefully with the new rasps and bowsaw on their way I can make some better progress.