Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[Wizard9999]

In which case then I'll give you £50 for it Jacob, deal?

Terry.

No I'm keeping it - as a reminder to avoid being taken in by hype!

Yeah, sure Jacob very believable :lol:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I wouldn't presume for a moment that a cheap tool would out perform an expensive one until I had tried it, no matter what I read about it. Those Aldi/Lidl chisels I have - I wouldn't say for a moment that they are equivalent to Ashley Isles etc. , but for day to day use they are undoubtedly as good as (or maybe better than) some mainstream brands at four or five times the price. Silverline of course is utter crrap, as are many other brands - but there are manufacturers and more so marketers who do the odd line that is very good value ... but that is back around the circle, there are upmarket ones that occasionally market a dog. This is one reason why we seek advice from sites such as this.
Curiously, mentioning Silverline in particular I have an acquaintance who told me the only plane he owns that is dead flat with sides at true right angles is a Silverline. I daresay the iron is a piece of lead, though. :lol:

 

[woodbrains]

I wouldn't presume for a moment that a cheap tool would out perform an expensive one until I had tried it, no matter what I read about it. Those Aldi/Lidl chisels I have - I wouldn't say for a moment that they are equivalent to Ashley Isles etc. , but for day to day use they are undoubtedly as good as (or maybe better than) some mainstream brands at four or five times the price. Silverline of course is utter crrap, as are many other brands - but there are manufacturers and more so marketers who do the odd line that is very good value ... but that is back around the circle, there are upmarket ones that occasionally market a dog. This is one reason why we seek advice from sites such as this.
Curiously, mentioning Silverline in particular I have an acquaintance who told me the only plane he owns that is dead flat with sides at true right angles is a Silverline. I daresay the iron is a piece of lead, though. :lol:

Hello,

Is his try square and straight edge Silverline, by any chance?

Mike

 

[Jacob]

I....
Curiously, mentioning Silverline in particular I have an acquaintance who told me the only plane he owns that is dead flat with sides at true right angles is a Silverline. I daresay the iron is a piece of lead, though. :lol:

On the other hand -I had an "Ess Vee" 4 plane which was total garbage - except the blade which was perfectly OK and fair quality. I bought it (£5 or so) for the same reason as the Clifton - to bracket the target. Top value is still anything by Record.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Hello,

Is his try square and straight edge Silverline, by any chance?

Mike
--------------
He's an engineer by training. No. :lol:

 

[Bm101]

OK so they are sharp out of the box but that's only for the first hour of their active lives. But if that's the issue it'd make more sense and save a lot of money to have your Record blades professionally sharpened

But sharpening by hand is the only way to go?!?
I'll give you £55 notes for the clifton Jacob. That's a fiver more than Terry. You could buy 2 records for that pal.
Thanks to all your advice I reckon I could sharpen it too by now.
Seeing as you're buying premium tools as a test, here's one you might like bud. Goal post dollies. Makes shifting them even easier,

 

[Jacob]

OK so they are sharp out of the box but that's only for the first hour of their active lives. But if that's the issue it'd make more sense and save a lot of money to have your Record blades professionally sharpened

But sharpening by hand is the only way to go?!?
I'll give you £55 notes for the clifton Jacob. That's a fiver more than Terry. You could buy 2 records for that pal.
Thanks to all your advice I reckon I could sharpen it too by now.
Seeing as you're buying premium tools as a test, here's one you might like bud. Goal post dollies. Makes shifting them even easier,

What it's worth (as a plane) and what it'd sell for are two different things. £250 inc postage?
nb I don't need any more records I've got more than I need thanks.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.

Peter, if you're still reading this thread by now (!) then just to say, please don't change a thing (though I know you weren't serious anyway). While I do admire the Paul Sellers approach to the use of budget and affordable tools, and the seeming absence of sponsorship by brands, as well as his excellent videos and blog, I got a slight feeling on his course earlier this year that the 'online celebrity status' might just possibly be going to his head a little - and as I mentioned in an earlier post, this caused him to lack involvement with the students (of which there were too many, 13 is imho too big a number) and concentrate too much on... well, not sure really, as Phil took a lot of the photos as well as providing most practical assistance to the class. Or he of course might just be getting a bit tired too with all the work he does. Either way the effect isn't the best for aspiring woodworker students.

Speaking personally, if I pay good money to attend a class run by respected craftsman Teacher X then I really want to be taught and helped along by Teacher X, not Assistant Y.

Hence I will be doing a 5 day beginners course with yourself, as I feel far more confident that this is what I will get.

Thanks Nick don't worry I have no plans to change the way we do things in my workshop, we have a format that we feel works well for our students.

You may have met one of my two workshop assistants over the weekend, Paul is a very talented furniture restorer and french polisher with forty plus years of experience in furniture, his main duty is keeping the workshop **** and span and making sure everything is ready for the students. The only teaching he does is for the last hour or so of my beginners course showing the guys how to shellac seal and wax their weeks work. He also advices any of our full time students if they have restoration projects.

Sam my younger assistant wasn't around on the weekend, he is an Alan Peters award winning young designer maker and a very talented young man, he shows my full time students Sketch Up and helps me prep timber as well as assisting in the tool shop, his afternoons are spent improving his own skills whilst working on commissioned work for his own clients, this is good for his personal development and gives the other full time students an insight into their first few years making in the real world.

I do employ other craftsmen to teach specialist subjects with my full timers, Mark Hancock for wood turning, Quentin Smith for marquetry, Chris Yates for routing (he was demonstrating on Saturday) and Bob Jones for polishing. Sean Feeney joins us once a week for design and make and assists with business studies as he is still a bespoke furniture maker.

http://www.markhancock.co.uk

http://www.qjsmarquetry.co.uk

http://www.seanfeeneyfurniture.co.uk

I am more than happy to bring other craftsmen into the workshop if I feel they can offer the students something up and above my own teaching, although I taught all these skills for years on both C&G and Btec national diplomas. What I won't do is pass the students onto a less experienced maker to free up more time for my own endeavours, this isn't what they paid for.

Hope to see you in the future, cheers Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark

Dunno I think the setting up and sharpening is more important than the "quality" (within reason).
I certainly would agree with Sellers that a set of silverline chisels will do just as well as a set of LV (PMT 111 :lol: ) at 50 times the price the price.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/which-c ... d-you-buy/

Setting up and sharpening is critical and easier with quality tools, a good craftsman can do reasonable work with cheap tools, but better work with quality kit, a beginner will always be at a disadvantage but quality tools will help, poor quality tools and a lack of understanding is going to be hard going for any new woodworker.

I would be very surprised if you can cut your London patten dovetails with Silverline chisels (never used them myself) but I would guess they have large lands and don't make one smaller than 6mm. How would they cope cleaning up a shoulder line 1.5 - 2 mm wide between sloping dovetails, My young assistant Sam uses Narex chisels but borrows my chisels when doing very fine work like this. I feel anybody that thinks all these chisels are the same either hasn't done such fine work or is kidding themselves and possibly others.

Cheers Peter

 

[sploo]

I do employ other craftsmen to teach specialist subjects with my full timers, Mark Hancock for wood turning, Quentin Smith for marquetry, Chris Yates for routing (he was demonstrating on Saturday) and Bob Jones for polishing. Sean Feeney joins us once a week for design and make and assists with business studies as he is still a bespoke furniture maker.

A definite +1 for Mark Hancock. As a novice turner I'm not well placed to judge someone's talent (though I liked what I saw in a demo I attended). Top bloke too - very approachable and happy to answer dumb questions from a novice.

 

[El Barto]

Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.

Peter, if you're still reading this thread by now (!) then just to say, please don't change a thing (though I know you weren't serious anyway). While I do admire the Paul Sellers approach to the use of budget and affordable tools, and the seeming absence of sponsorship by brands, as well as his excellent videos and blog, I got a slight feeling on his course earlier this year that the 'online celebrity status' might just possibly be going to his head a little - and as I mentioned in an earlier post, this caused him to lack involvement with the students (of which there were too many, 13 is imho too big a number) and concentrate too much on... well, not sure really, as Phil took a lot of the photos as well as providing most practical assistance to the class. Or he of course might just be getting a bit tired too with all the work he does. Either way the effect isn't the best for aspiring woodworker students.

Speaking personally, if I pay good money to attend a class run by respected craftsman Teacher X then I really want to be taught and helped along by Teacher X, not Assistant Y.

Hence I will be doing a 5 day beginners course with yourself, as I feel far more confident that this is what I will get.

Thanks Nick don't worry I have no plans to change the way we do things in my workshop, we have a format that we feel works well for our students.

You may have met one of my two workshop assistants over the weekend, Paul is a very talented furniture restorer and french polisher with forty plus years of experience in furniture, his main duty is keeping the workshop **** and span and making sure everything is ready for the students. The only teaching he does is for the last hour or so of my beginners course showing the guys how to shellac seal and wax their weeks work. He also advices any of our full time students if they have restoration projects.

Sam my younger assistant wasn't around on the weekend, he is an Alan Peters award winning young designer maker and a very talented young man, he shows my full time students Sketch Up and helps me prep timber as well as assisting in the tool shop, his afternoons are spent improving his own skills whilst working on commissioned work for his own clients, this is good for his personal development and gives the other full time students an insight into their first few years making in the real world.

I do employ other craftsmen to teach specialist subjects with my full timers, Mark Hancock for wood turning, Quentin Smith for marquetry, Chris Yates for routing (he was demonstrating on Saturday) and Bob Jones for polishing. Sean Feeney joins us once a week for design and make and assists with business studies as he is still a bespoke furniture maker.

http://www.markhancock.co.uk

http://www.qjsmarquetry.co.uk

http://www.seanfeeneyfurniture.co.uk

I am more than happy to bring other craftsmen into the workshop if I feel they can offer the students something up and above my own teaching, although I taught all these skills for years on both C&G and Btec national diplomas. What I won't do is pass the students onto a less experienced maker to free up more time for my own endeavours, this isn't what they paid for.

Hope to see you in the future, cheers Peter

Sounds like you've got a great setup there Peter and kudos on the ethic/s behind it all.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Brings to mind what my father used to say - people say I'm clever ... they're right. I'm clever because because I make sure I employ people who are cleverer than me.

 

[Jacob]

...
I would be very surprised if you can cut your London patten dovetails with Silverline chisels (never used them myself) but I would guess they have large lands and don't make one smaller than 6mm. How would they cope cleaning up a shoulder line 1.5 - 2 mm wide between sloping dovetails, My young assistant Sam uses Narex chisels but borrows my chisels when doing very fine work like this. I feel anybody that thinks all these chisels are the same either hasn't done such fine work or is kidding themselves and possibly others.

Cheers Peter

It's really odd how DTs are so misunderstood.
The whole point of what is doubtfully called "London Pattern" dovetail is that it's the very easiest one to do. Single kerf on one side is guide for the kerf on the other - invariably done free hand, including the positioning, though dividers would be used on posher work.
Remove the waste with any small cutting implement filed to fit - Silverline chisel if that's all you've got, bit of old saw blade, a nail if you are desperate. No need to spend £50 on PMV 111 whatever that is :lol:
It's the easy beginners DT for light work, and very common.
Small is not necessarily "fine" in any particular sense.

LN Narex LV chisels only go down to 1/4 or 1/8" etc so you are going to have to file up a bit of broken knife or something for 1.5 to 2mm - but you'd take out most of the waste with the saw itself.

 

[woodbrains]

Remove the waste with any small cutting implement filed to fit - Silverline chisel if that's all you've got, bit of old saw blade, a nail if you are desperate. No need to spend £50 on PMV 111 whatever that is :lol:
It's the easy beginners DT for light work, and very common.
Small is not necessarily "fine" in any particular sense.

Hello,

Small is definitely not fine, when you do them quite obviously. But they should be and if you think a bit of filed metal or a nail is anywhere near a substitute for a fine landed chisel for doing such work, then it explains a lot about your perceptions of what fine work is. You obviously haven't seen it/ don't do it. But still you feel the need to preach about how others do it!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Remove the waste with any small cutting implement filed to fit - Silverline chisel if that's all you've got, bit of old saw blade, a nail if you are desperate. No need to spend £50 on PMV 111 whatever that is :lol:
It's the easy beginners DT for light work, and very common.
Small is not necessarily "fine" in any particular sense.

Hello,

Small is definitely not fine, when you do them quite obviously. But they should be and if you think a bit of filed metal or a nail is anywhere near a substitute for a fine landed chisel for doing such work, then it explains a lot about your perceptions of what fine work is. You obviously haven't seen it/ don't do it. But still you feel the need to preach about how others do it!

Mike.

I've done a few - but more relevant - over the years I've looked at a lot of old work of varying quality.
The preaching comes from the "fine furniture" lot, who have invented a whole mythology about how difficult things are and how special (and numerous!) the tools required.

 

[Jacob]

PS you won't find a "fine landed chisel" 1.5 to 2mm wide. Quite the opposite - the sides of such a small DT would be very steep so the bevel would only need to be slightly less i.e. not "fine" at all.
What you will find is that "The old timers who just had firmer chisels would simply grind an angle at the leading square edge of their chisels. It was a steeply tapered bevel,which tapered out at about 1/2" long. This gave enough clearance right at the cutting edge end to clean out dovetails" (from another forum).
What you will also find (in old work) is that all DT sides are over-cut to a greater or lesser extent. Hardly visible on top class work, wildly exaggerated on cheap work (it's faster).
This makes removal of the waste much easier - the corner is already cut out.
I doubt the pros ever fiddled about with coping saws either - I guess (but I don't know) that they did a starter cut vertically (several on a wide DT) to cut up the waste and make it easier to remove.
On a single kerf DT this would be the starter cut, followed by the two angled side cuts in the same kerf. Very quick and easy whilst the saw is in your hand.

Not sure about the word "land" with reference to the bevel of a chisel - is it old and established? Is it just the flat bits left untouched by shaping? e.g. a triangular section would have no lands at all?

 

[woodbrains]

Hello
Perhaps you should offer courses yourself, Jacob, and teach the trad dovetail, like these:

Whilst courses of today will be teaching these:

I don't think classes on gappy, overcut dovetails will have many subscribers, though.

You can't keep harking back to bygone ages, Jacob, buyers if fine furniture won't tolerate anything but that which approaches perfection. They simply won't buy it, and at the price it costs, you can't blame them. Besides, student on these courses want to be able to do what the best modern makers can (demonsterably) do. We have moved on, we have improved. We no longer dovetail, piece worked drawers, where speed caused sloppiness, and this was tolerated.

Incidentally, the land on a chisel is the bit left at the edge, if the bevel has not been ground fine enough to reduce it to an acceptably thin enough level. Look at Ashley Iles chisels for an example if excellent BE chisels. Very narrow chisels still have bevels and should not have lands, even though the bevels are much less acute, they still fit into dovetail sockets without bruising the tails.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

I don't see that as "moving on" at all - it's just a different market.
Overworked and expensive stuff has always been made for the well-off, from the earliest times - there's nothing "contemporary" about those DTs. though they have become somewhat fetishised in recent years! But it's a shrinking market - IKEA turns over more!

TBH I really like "ordinary" stuff such as in your top picture. It's from and it's for ordinary people. It's the mainstream centre of the craft tradition. It's much more interesting than a lot of the meretricious over-worked posh stuff.

PS and there's nothing "antique" about the other DTs - they are just cheaply made.

 

[Racers]

Their you go, we shouldn't get thoughts above out station, ordinary people like us don't deserve fine stuff.


Pete

 

[Jacob]

Their you go, we shouldn't get thoughts above out station, ordinary people like us don't deserve fine stuff.


Pete

Not sure what point you are trying to make Pete.