Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[Random Orbital Bob]

What's different about Sellers is that you don't feel his courses are really a front for selling tools and kit - he concentrates on basic skills and knowledge, which, let's face it, is what any person wanting to do a course most likely needs. Nobody is going to find out how to make fine furniture in 5 days. 5 years more like.

Agreed. Sellers hasn't appended add-on businesses around his hub of education and training. He has one agenda, which is explicit, to give classes, whether they're classroom based or by other forms of media. What I think he has got very very right is expert use of the internet to promote his capability. Lets face it, it's not just the future, it's the now for reaching any decent size of audience. He has superbly blended the look and feel of a craftsman's workshop, even down to all the cliché's of beard, Northern accent, multiple planes in the background view, with the most exciting form of modern mass media, the web. His presentation style is so ridiculously at ease that he IS your woodwork teacher personified, or your Granddad, all rolled into one. You can almost smell the wood shavings. In this country we are woefully short of these new kinds of "stars" whereas across the pond there are many who grabbed the opportunity with both arms, to such an extent that they're now sponsored as the tool vendors realise how lucrative and focused their target audience reach has become. Here, we seem to bleat on over and over about how "it's all free" on the internet and there is no decent contract any more between buyer and seller. Rubbish! it's just different.

Life is a game I'm afraid and every now and then a massively disruptive technology comes along that upsets the apple cart, fundamentally changing the rules. The smart, agile thinkers adapt and embrace the new, finding new routes to market, learning what the new rules are through trial and error. Those that don't adapt, get pruned out by economic forces, precisely like evolution in nature. Cruel is not an unreasonable adjective to describe this process, but make no mistake, it's happening......and fast.

 

[AJB Temple]

Personally I have no problem with a tutor selling tools - as long as they are quality tool that will support the techniques taught. Practically all of us like and enjoy new tools, so the tutor is pushing at an open and unresisting door. Why should a third party shop get the benefit? We can tell when we are getting a hard sell, and we are all adults and can make our own minds up. I actually see a tool shop attached to a tuition centre as a plus point!

I don't suppose many people in the tuition business put You Tube videos up out of altruism.

 

[Jacob]

... I actually see a tool shop attached to a tuition centre as a plus point!.....

Perhaps OK as long as they are not leading the gullible into buying unnecessary flash gear like veritas chisels (PMV 11 :lol: ) and all the other well know shiny tat - turning woodwork into a shopping experience.
Instead they should be setting an example and teaching common sense about tools - which is what Sellers does extremely well.

 

[iNewbie]

And he's off...

 

[sploo]

And he's off...

To be fair I do agree with Jacob on the unnecessary flash gear point (though I don't have a view about any specific tools).

What I like about Sellers is that he'll call out something as bad when it is bad, but he's not in the least bit elitist about tools - if something's cheap and good he'll tell you about it and use it.

In his Woodworking Masterclasses videos I've often noticed he'll be using the Aldi chisels or the Silverline #4 plane he recently tried out. I think he's rather fond of his Ashley Isles chisels at the moment (who can blame him) but I like his unpushy approach when it comes to tools. Basically, practice and skill matters more.

 

[iNewbie]

And he's off...

To be fair I do agree with Jacob on the unnecessary flash gear point (though I don't have a view about any specific tools).

What I like about Sellers is that he'll call out something as bad when it is bad, but he's not in the least bit elitist about tools - if something's cheap and good he'll tell you about it and use it.

In his Woodworking Masterclasses videos I've often noticed he'll be using the Aldi chisels or the Silverline #4 plane he recently tried out. I think he's rather fond of his Ashley Isles chisels at the moment (who can blame him) but I like his unpushy approach when it comes to tools. Basically, practice and skill matters more.

If someone wants to buy "flashy gear" I'll leave it up to them - its their money and decision. I don't just assume they're gullible - Jacob got taken in and followed the Guru's and now we never hear the last of it...

Sellers cabinet is loaded with posh tools, why, because he doesn't have an issue with using them because they're a tool. And yes I've seen his recommendation for The Iles chisles and he's not to proud to recommend Veritas either.

https://paulsellers.com/2011/08/looking ... y-veritas/


https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/planes- ... work-with/

8 May 2014 at 11:01 pm

"I used the Veritas block plane and their bevel-up jack plan extensively on the White House pieces I designed and built for the Permanent Collection of the White Hose five years ago."

This guys not the Virgin Mary.

His use of the tools in his video may be for some old romantic notion - like buying Woden because his mentor had one. Who knows. I think we ALL know buying the best tools available doesn't make a craftsmen.

If this forum had a bunch of Guru's trying to shift the top brands I'd probably understand where Jacob is coming from. As soon as one uber company is mentioned out pops the Garlic/Holy Water and Cross...

 

[Jacob]

....
If this forum had a bunch of Guru's trying to shift the top brands I'd probably understand where Jacob is coming from. .....

That's very much how it was only a few years back. Still is a bit!

 

[Peter Sefton]

You have been to at least one of my open days Jacob back in the day of Classic Hand Tools, Workshop Heaven or Intelligent Workshop to name but three of the many other woodworking companies that have attended the shows along with a fair few different demonstrators. None of them paid to be here and no member of the public has ever been asked to pay to come along, not sure if any one twisted your arm to buy tools or too enjoy the refreshments put on to raise money for our nominated charity.

After a few years of advising students where they could buy tools from we started a tool shop run from here, this gives the students a chance to try before they buy a range of tools. We also show students how to make the most out of the tools they already have. We have just this morning flattened ground and sharpened some students old Stanley and a new set of Marples. We will be working on a students faithful block plane after tea break to sort out the sole and re grinding the blade that is chipping from cutting wood.

The students will then move onto sharpening the AI in the tool boxes and my Narex and PMV11, if they decide to buy any of these with a student discount or go on Ebay and buy old stuff thats fine by me. I feel happy they have experience different levels of tools and they can make their own minds up if they wish to buy new tools or not.

I work with my students every day and stay friends with them as they progress as woodworks for many years, I am very happy with the advice we give out to help woodworkers.

Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.

Sorry my approach has offended you somehow, never mind I will have to live with that.

Cheers Peter

 

[sploo]

Sellers cabinet is loaded with posh tools, why, because he doesn't have an issue with using them because they're a tool. And yes I've seen his recommendation for The Iles chisles and he's not to proud to recommend Veritas either.

Nothing wrong with mentioning tools you like. I have spoken with Paul in person about this, and he made the point that they try to avoid doing videos with the specific and obviously branded tools - to avoid giving the impression that you must have a particular product in order to succeed.

It's inevitable though that a person interested in a field will have the "desire" pieces that they really want; especially stuff they coveted as a youngster but couldn't afford.

As for this forum though; I've not been a member for that many years, but I can't say I recall coming across people pushing particular tools or brands (even from the members who are also vendors).

 

[Jacob]

....
Sorry my approach has offended you somehow, never mind I will have to live with that.

Cheers Peter

Offended? Not me squire! :lol:

However I do think that the various vendors of tools and services do risk running the gauntlet and can expect a fair bit of scepticism on forums like these, which are for the benefit of woodworkers, who may or may not choose to end up as their clients.
"Critique" is the word and the more the better!
Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!

 

[MrTeroo]

Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!

I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?

Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?

I mean this in good faith with no malice

 

[Jacob]

Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!

I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?

Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?

I mean this in good faith with no malice

Nope can't see it. Must try harder!

 

[MrTeroo]

Fair enough.

 

[Wizard9999]

Has Paul Sellers ever posted here I wonder? Probably got more sense!

I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?

Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?

I mean this in good faith with no malice

I see you are pretty new Teroo (no offence intend, just observation). It won't take you long to realise Jacob simply does this as some sort of twisted sport. Best to ignore as witout oxygen a fire will die.

Terry.

 

[Mr T]

I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?

Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?

I mean this in good faith with no malice

The forum wouldn't be any fun without the Curmudgeons Mr Teroo.

Chris

 

[Wizard9999]

I always find these debates interesting to a point.

I understand the point that to ensure people are not excluded from woodworking it is helpful that there are people demonstrating how second hand and / or inexpensive tools can be fettled and give great results in the hands of the skilled. It is also very helpful that there are people out there pointing out which new cheaper tools are not the best quality when compared to older, better made second hand items.

But are we saying higher quality, more expensive new tools are of poor quality?

Take my friend Jim for example. He worked for years in the City and made a few quid, enough that he could retire in his mid-forties and now only does a bit of part time work because he finds it interesting and keeps his brain ticking over. Jim has become interested in woodwork in the last few years and has been buying some tools. Jim has come to woodwork later in life and wants to spend his time trying to develop skills so that he can make some things he is proud of before he gets too old, he doesn't want to spend any more time than he has to fettling tools if it means he has less time to do woodworking. So Jim nips out and buys some Clifton, Lie Nielsen and Veritas tools. He spends a few thousand pound, but to Jim that is not a lot of cash as back in the day that would buy him and a few City chums a decent lunch with wine.

Should Jim be excluded from woodwork because he has the means to buy decent tools straight off the bat?

Terry.

 

[lurker]

Its a shame Jacob does seem to intentionally wind folks up the wrong way, because his underlying message is good.

You don't need to spend a fortune on boutique tools to do good woodwork.
If you look around this website its easy to be taken in by the pseudo science of sharpening.
There are no short cuts to skills, but with the right technique many are easy to aquire ............but they can't be bought.
Where hand tools are concerned the old ways are frequently the best.

He likes Sellers (can't stand his delivery myself) cos he sings a similar song.

Sorry if you feel I have put words in your mouth Mr Grimsdale :wink:

 

[lurker]

I always find these debates interest to a point.

I understand the point that to ensure people are not excluded from woodworking it is helpful that there are people demonstrating how second hand and / or inexpensive tools can be fettled and give great results in the hands of the skilled. It is also very helpful that there are people out there pointing out which new cheaper tools are not the best quality when compared to older, better made second hand items.

But are we saying higher quality, more expensive new tools are of poor quality?

Take my friend Jim for example. He worked for years in the City and made a few quid, enough that he could retire in his mid-forties and now only does a bit of part time work because he finds it interesting and keeps his brain ticking over. Jim has become interested in woodwork in the last few years and has been buying some tools. Jim has come to woodwork later in life and wants to spend his time trying to develop skills so that he can make some things he is proud of before he gets too old, he doesn't want to spend any more time than he has to fettling tools if it means he has less time to do woodworking. So Jim nips out and buys some Clifton, Lie Nielsen and Veritas tools. He spends a few thousand pound, but to Jim that is not a lot of cash as back in the day that would buy him and a few City chums a decent lunch with wine.

Should Jim be excluded from woodwork because he has the means to buy decent tools straight off the bat?

Terry.

Thats no problem at all, in fact I bet most of us are like Jim (some of us even sharing his name if not his wealth). However your mate is combining two hobbies, tool collecting and woodwork. They are frequentlly found together but are mutually exclusive.
Jim will soon learn that boutique tools will need some maintainance so "fettling" is unavoidable.

 

[Wizard9999]

I always find these debates interest to a point.

I understand the point that to ensure people are not excluded from woodworking it is helpful that there are people demonstrating how second hand and / or inexpensive tools can be fettled and give great results in the hands of the skilled. It is also very helpful that there are people out there pointing out which new cheaper tools are not the best quality when compared to older, better made second hand items.

But are we saying higher quality, more expensive new tools are of poor quality?

Take my friend Jim for example. He worked for years in the City and made a few quid, enough that he could retire in his mid-forties and now only does a bit of part time work because he finds it interesting and keeps his brain ticking over. Jim has become interested in woodwork in the last few years and has been buying some tools. Jim has come to woodwork later in life and wants to spend his time trying to develop skills so that he can make some things he is proud of before he gets too old, he doesn't want to spend any more time than he has to fettling tools if it means he has less time to do woodworking. So Jim nips out and buys some Clifton, Lie Nielsen and Veritas tools. He spends a few thousand pound, but to Jim that is not a lot of cash as back in the day that would buy him and a few City chums a decent lunch with wine.

Should Jim be excluded from woodwork because he has the means to buy decent tools straight off the bat?

Terry.

Thats no problem at all, in fact I bet most of us are like Jim (some of us even sharing his name if not his wealth). However your mate is combining two hobbies, tool collecting and woodwork. They are frequentlly found together but are mutually exclusive.
Jim will soon learn that boutique tools will need some maintainance so "fettling" is unavoidable.

Not to quibble but I did say Jim wanted to minimise fettling, not eliminate it and the reason for minimalising it is to give him more time to work with wood. If Jim buys a shiny new Clifton no4 I suspect he will be able to use it a bit sooner than if he buys a rusty fifty year old Record, even if after the necessary work the Record can be a great tool.

Surely to suggest anyone who buys expensive tools is by definition a tool collector is exactly the type of exclusion I suggested was unreasonable?

Terry

 

[MrTeroo]

The forum wouldn't be any fun without the Curmudgeons Mr Teroo.

Chris

Maybe, but having arrived at this forum after leaving another one (different subject matter) that was like the wild west, it was a breath of fresh air to see polite conversation being the norm.

And a Secret Santa! Unheard of on an internet forum

Maybe I'm too sensitive after the last forum.

I really enjoy this forum btw.