Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[lurker]

[
I don't know you Jacob, but you have a very inflammatory style of writing? Maybe you can't see it?
Could you possibly read through your posts a couple of times from the viewpoint of third parties before clicking submit?
I mean this in good faith with no malice

He can see it
He has certainly been banned enough times :lol:
Jacob is an old git, I'm pretty sure he will take that as a compliment, as is intended.

 

[sploo]

Take my friend Jim for example. He worked for years in the City and made a few quid, enough that he could retire in his mid-forties and now only does a bit of part time work because he finds it interesting and keeps his brain ticking over. Jim has become interested in woodwork in the last few years and has been buying some tools. Jim has come to woodwork later in life and wants to spend his time trying to develop skills so that he can make some things he is proud of before he gets too old, he doesn't want to spend any more time than he has to fettling tools if it means he has less time to do woodworking. So Jim nips out and buys some Clifton, Lie Nielsen and Veritas tools. He spends a few thousand pound, but to Jim that is not a lot of cash as back in the day that would buy him and a few City chums a decent lunch with wine.

Should Jim be excluded from woodwork because he has the means to buy decent tools straight off the bat?

Terry.

The problem is that at some point Jim is going to have to sharpen the tools, and likely fettle them to get them working properly (so new or old they're going to have to be taken apart and adjusted).

My (relatively modern) Stanley #4 (given as a gift) had always been an object of curiosity. With a bit of help from others I learned how to start using it, but it wasn't until I picked up my first old 'un from eBay that I realised I had to cross the bridge of stripping one down (in order to restore it). I wouldn't think for a second about taking a plane to bits now if required, but as a newbie I wouldn't have had the confidence to do it on my newer Stanley - let alone a Clifton (as I'd have been worried about c*cking something up).

 

[Jacob]

..... If Jim buys a shiny new Clifton no4 I suspect he will be able to use it a bit sooner than if he buys a rusty fifty year old Record, ....

It's not likely that a novice would be able to do much even with a perfect hand-plane and it'd need sharpening a few times before he'd got the hang of it - in other words probably quite quickly on a par with the old Record.
I've got a Clifton 4. Don't use it much it so much heavier than a Record. Also the metal is soft and it picked up a scratch from a nail, early on. Doesn't matter - just a bit irritating on a supposedly top of the range tool.
OK so they are sharp out of the box but that's only for the first hour of their active lives. But if that's the issue it'd make more sense and save a lot of money to have your Record blades professionally sharpened

 

[MikeJhn]

Hi Guys

I have not read through this thread, but just wanted to give some positive insight into Peter Sefton and his work ethos, I recently bought a JessEm router table guide set from him and in conversation mentioned my problem Arthritic hands, Peter sent me a Micro Jig push block free of charge to see if it helped, (big plus 1) he also noted that I had a problem with an XX router extension, we discussed this to ensure that I was setting it up correctly, the conclusion was that it is faulty and Peter immediately issued a refund, now this is not so far out of the ordinary until you realise I bought this over two years ago and Peter has honoured his commitment to this customer far beyond what I have come to expect (big plus 2) Obviously this is the standard of service you can expect from this honourable retailer.

My Gast is Flabbered.

Mike

 

[meccarroll]

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark

 

[Jacob]

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark

Dunno I think the setting up and sharpening is more important than the "quality" (within reason).
I certainly would agree with Sellers that a set of silverline chisels will do just as well as a set of LV (PMT 111 :lol: ) at 50 times the price the price.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/which-c ... d-you-buy/

 

[Wizard9999]

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark

Dunno I think the setting up and sharpening is more important than the "quality" (within reason).
I certainly would agree with Sellers that a set of silverline chisels will do just as well as a set of LV (PMT 111 :lol: ) at 50 times the price the price.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/which-c ... d-you-buy/

But...
https://paulsellers.com/2016/10/uk-chisel-like/

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I fettled a set of the Aldi ones, reducing the lands, taking all the machining marks off, flattening the faces and regrinding them on a finer wheel before making and fitting a set of London pattern handles in padauk for last years S/S. They were as good as virtually anything I own (- and surprisingly converted me to LP handles, as I could not see the fascination before). Unfortunately the ungrateful recipient couldn't be bothered to post any pictures, or even acknowledge their receipt.
The next time I see a set, I'll do myself some (I need more like I need a hole in the head ). The Lidl ones are near identical but have hornbeam handles. I appreciate that not everyone wants this work, but there is no better way of learning tool maintenance and what to look for in an expensive tool. The most I've ever paid for a plane is £30 for a Stanley No.8 with a full Sweetheart iron and the most for a chisel about £5 for some box handled Wards - I doubt there is much on the market to come near them. Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.

 

[Jacob]

.... Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.

I paid for a brand new Clifton 4 (£250 ish? can't remember) out of interest to see if you get value for money at the top end. You don't - it's a delusion.
They don't hold their value either - that's another popular delusion.

 

[meccarroll]

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark

Dunno I think the setting up and sharpening is more important than the "quality" (within reason).
I certainly would agree with Sellers that a set of silverline chisels will do just as well as a set of LV (PMT 111 :lol: ) at 50 times the price the price.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/which-c ... d-you-buy/

All woodwork tools with a blade will need sharpening/honing at some time or another irrespective of whether they are new old etc and the quality of the tool will make very little difference to that point. However the interval of sharpening will generally depend upon the quality of the blade and on this point quality is very important.

If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion.

I read your summary regarding using a "Rod" and could not have put it any better myself but in respect of quality tools it's a no brainer.

Mark

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.

 

[iNewbie]

Been reading this post on who's course etc is best and think all the named seem to have their fair share of followers.

Regarding the tool speculation, if you want to produce quality woodwork it's far easier using quality tools, just my take after 40 years as a professional woodworker.

Mark

Dunno I think the setting up and sharpening is more important than the "quality" (within reason).
I certainly would agree with Sellers that a set of silverline chisels will do just as well as a set of LV (PMT 111 :lol: ) at 50 times the price the price.
https://paulsellers.com/2014/08/which-c ... d-you-buy/

Just incase you mised Wizards post :mrgreen: :

"I think we all want a chisel that looks good too."

https://paulsellers.com/2016/10/uk-chisel-like/

I don't mind his pushing of product he likes as he doesn't have blinkered vision - unlike a disciple of his...

 

[lurker]

but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.

I've given up telling my wife this.

 

[meccarroll]

"If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.

I made the comment based on 40 years experience of using hand woodwork tools, but of course you see this as a wild assumption.

Mark

 

[NickN]

Maybe I should change my approach possibly holding a morning like Paul has planned, what is it £50 per head maximum 100 woodworkers for a 2 hour session, not a bad way of earning 5K for a mornings work.

Peter, if you're still reading this thread by now (!) then just to say, please don't change a thing (though I know you weren't serious anyway). While I do admire the Paul Sellers approach to the use of budget and affordable tools, and the seeming absence of sponsorship by brands, as well as his excellent videos and blog, I got a slight feeling on his course earlier this year that the 'online celebrity status' might just possibly be going to his head a little - and as I mentioned in an earlier post, this caused him to lack involvement with the students (of which there were too many, 13 is imho too big a number) and concentrate too much on... well, not sure really, as Phil took a lot of the photos as well as providing most practical assistance to the class. Or he of course might just be getting a bit tired too with all the work he does. Either way the effect isn't the best for aspiring woodworker students.

Speaking personally, if I pay good money to attend a class run by respected craftsman Teacher X then I really want to be taught and helped along by Teacher X, not Assistant Y.

Hence I will be doing a 5 day beginners course with yourself, as I feel far more confident that this is what I will get.

 

[MrTeroo]

Speaking personally, if I pay good money to attend a class run by respected craftsman Teacher X then I really want to be taught and helped along by Teacher X, not Assistant Y.

+1

 

[Wizard9999]

.... Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.

I paid for a brand new Clifton 4 (£250 ish? can't remember) out of interest to see if you get value for money at the top end. You don't - it's a delusion.
They don't hold their value either - that's another popular delusion.

In which case then I'll give you £50 for it Jacob, deal?

Terry.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

"If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.

I made the comment based on 40 years experience of using hand woodwork tools, but of course you see this as a wild assumption.

Mark

I've used them longer than that , but by the bye. I didn't say it was a wild assumption, I said the converse was no wilder. No offence meant, I was just pointing out that cheap isn't always bad and expense doesn't always mean top quality. Diminishing returns are of course another discussion.

 

[meccarroll]

"If you are convinced a cheap low grade chisel will outperform a quality chisel then you are welcome to that opinion."
Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not.

I made the comment based on 40 years experience of using hand woodwork tools, but of course you see this as a wild assumption.

Mark

I've used them longer than that , but by the bye. I didn't say it was a wild assumption, I said the converse was no wilder. No offence meant, I was just pointing out that cheap isn't always bad and expense doesn't always mean top quality. Diminishing returns are of course another discussion.

Yes but seem to be quoting a point I never made Phil.p:.........

Not all low priced tools, maybe, but that is no wilder than the assumption than that paying a small fortune for something automatically confers superior quality. It may ... but it may not

In my experience Silverline, are cheap low grade tools that are inferior to more expensive propriety brand quality tools and I can say this with first hand experience.

If anyone has any reason to disagree and has any outlandishly expensive hand tools that they would like to swap for a brand new siverline equivalent then please do PM me, I'll be only too glad to make an exchange

Mark

PS Phil.p No offence taken and I hope none taken by you either.

 

[Jacob]

.... Pay what you wish for your tools, good luck to you - but you really, really don't need to.

I paid for a brand new Clifton 4 (£250 ish? can't remember) out of interest to see if you get value for money at the top end. You don't - it's a delusion.
They don't hold their value either - that's another popular delusion.

In which case then I'll give you £50 for it Jacob, deal?

Terry.

No I'm keeping it - as a reminder to avoid being taken in by hype!