Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[NickN]

there will be future courses in kitchen fitting, hard landscaping and vehicle maintenance.

Do we have to bring our own granite, gravel and tyres? :mrgreen:

 

[Bm101]

I think I was quite clear.

 

[NickN]

Hmm, think I'll wait for the all-inclusive version...

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks for the advice on Vimeo El Barto and Steve, no hard sell on me, all advice welcome.

We plan to have them downloadable from the Knowledge page on the new tool shop website, this section is still work in progress but will be ready in time for the videos when they have completed the editing.

Cheers Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

Just a quick report back from the mini open day at Peter Sefton's Woodworking School - first time I've been there or met him.

Nice facilities, spacious enough and well laid out with a good mix of hand tools and electrickery powered machines, and friendly staff too. During the space of a short Router Lift and Table demonstration I went from "I never ever want a power router or table in my workshop" to "I really want a nice shiny Jessem Router Lift and Table, gimme, now". Well almost anyway... need to learn how to use a router first.

What I have come away with though, apart from a nearly new WoodRiver 4 1/2 plane at less than half the new price, and a heavily discounted new seconds Low Angle Block plane, is a firm desire to book in on one of the future 5 day beginners courses, once I can arrange the time off work to suit. Spoke at some length with Peter about the course content and it has a really good thorough grounding in all aspects of woodworking, including the all important (to me) practical techniques of achieving things like straight sawing and sawing the wrong side of the line, etc. I was very impressed by the standard of the work previous students have created, and also it seems to me that Peter really wants the students to achieve the highest possible standard, and learn precision woodworking with a range of both hand and machine tools.

It's not to say that I won't try and get to one or two of the other teachers and their courses mentioned here too, but the priority will definitely be to go on one of Peter's as soon as I can, even more so as it's only a 40 minute journey from me.

Good to meet you and your wife yesterday, pleased you enjoyed the open day and had chance to see the current students work and chat to the team. Hopefully we will see you on a short course next year.

Cheers Peter

 

[Wizard9999]

Just a quick report back from the mini open day at Peter Sefton's Woodworking School - first time I've been there or met him.

Nice facilities, spacious enough and well laid out with a good mix of hand tools and electrickery powered machines, and friendly staff too. During the space of a short Router Lift and Table demonstration I went from "I never ever want a power router or table in my workshop" to "I really want a nice shiny Jessem Router Lift and Table, gimme, now". Well almost anyway... need to learn how to use a router first.

What I have come away with though, apart from a nearly new WoodRiver 4 1/2 plane at less than half the new price, and a heavily discounted new seconds Low Angle Block plane, is a firm desire to book in on one of the future 5 day beginners courses, once I can arrange the time off work to suit. Spoke at some length with Peter about the course content and it has a really good thorough grounding in all aspects of woodworking, including the all important (to me) practical techniques of achieving things like straight sawing and sawing the wrong side of the line, etc. I was very impressed by the standard of the work previous students have created, and also it seems to me that Peter really wants the students to achieve the highest possible standard, and learn precision woodworking with a range of both hand and machine tools.

It's not to say that I won't try and get to one or two of the other teachers and their courses mentioned here too, but the priority will definitely be to go on one of Peter's as soon as I can, even more so as it's only a 40 minute journey from me.

Thanks for the write up Nick. Very disappointingly I my visit was vetoed by SWMBO as we had friends coming in the evening and apparently me disappearing for 8 hours (about a four hour round trip from where I am) was considered unhelpful.

I was thinking about the wood machining course Peter runs, but I have started to think maybe the five day beginners course may be the way to go.

Terry.

 

[Wizard9999]

The "you can find it all for free on YouTube" mentality, which we see a lot of on here, unfortunately, means that it is very easy to spend a lot of time and not an inconsiderable amount of money producing something of excellent quality, only to find that it is difficult to sell because there is no perceived value difference between the paid-for product and the YT freebie. Everyone wants to watch good video, too few people are prepared to pay for it, in my experience.
There is a widespread view that Intellectual Property should be free at the point of consumption and that the costs of production should be paid for by somebody else. Anybody else. But not me. Get Sponsorship. Get advertising. And I'll install an Ad-blocker. But not me.
We have to try to change this view.

[my emphasis]

I guess therein lies the rub Steve. If I think back to my business school days it is little different to many products in that it is all about differentiation. The question these days is how to demonstrate that the quality of the product merits a higher price. Peter has the benefit of the reputation of his woodworking school, ie brand equity.

I do wonder how long the YouTube model will work. If I understand it YouTube pays people who upload videos that generate traffic above a certain level. But that only works if that traffic encourages advertising, which is only encouraged if that advertising converts to sales for the advertiser. I have no idea of the statistics, but I am sceptical that is is good value for the advertisers, not least because the adverts I see are often not at all connected to the content I am watching - why advertise the new Transformers movie to somebody about to watch a video on how to make a tablesaw sled?

The other thing I have noticed is that in the main it only seems to be US YouTubers that generate really big viewing numbers (well for the types of videos I watch anyway). I think Peter Parfitt is excellent, but his videos generate a tenth of the traffic of other less well made content from the US. Maybe it is just the size of the 'market', maybe it is that those from other countries are happy to watch US produced videos but Americans don't watch content not made in the US.

Not sure where this post is going, but I guess what I wanted to say is that making great content is only half the battle, I agree with you that it is getting the message out there that it is great content that is equally as hard.

Terry.

 

[MrTeroo]

Maybe Paul Sellers has the right mix.

He has lots of basic videos on youtube and one multi part slightly more complex one (workbench) then in tandem he has a website offering subscription or one off payment models for video tutorials featuring more involved projects?

The free youtube videos are the bait on the end of his hook.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

This is a response to Terry's post.

Part of the value proposition that YT and similar web spaces bring is targeting very specific special interest groups. When I graduated I worked in TV advertising for the first 3 years of my career (ITV). There is a lucrative market called the 16-24 yr olds that used to be notoriously difficult to target (because they didn't watch Coronation St et al). That was one of the things Channel 4 was going to be good for (The Tube etc).

Modern web spaces like YT are absolutely fantastic for targeting special interest groups and not just the old elusive 16-24's but now almost literally, men over 45 who have a Myford lathe!! The possibilities in refining the granularity of targeting are absolutely off the chart.

That's one of the reasons the YT model is so successful. However, to your point about why does an advert for a movie aimed at kids appear in my video on router tables! Again, back in my ITV days, advertising is sold by delivering content on a "cost per thousand" of your target audience basis. If you advertised your beer brand, you wanted it in the centre break of the Xmas Bond movie because it attracted a huge male audience. But that spot is incredibly expensive for media buyers to purchase. What about the end break of News at Ten?? Still has beer drinkers, but not enough to warrant a spot rate for the break. So the media owners (ITV in this case) package air time so that instead of one big, sexy break like Bond delivering all their ratings (Cost per thousand), instead they're delivered in 20 less well known breaks.

I think it's clear that YT are doing just that, they're packaging their media product in a way which delivers a guaranteed amount of target audience ratings....and you don't care which content that appears in...as long as it influences enough of your target to get them buying product. So it's a bit hit and miss and when you see a transformers movie ad, you're left scratching your head, but the packaging principle is almost certainly why it's done.

 

[Jacob]

Quite a few YT how-to producers offer vast amounts of material free but with invitations for voluntary contributions, sometimes just a token amount to let you into the "members" area. I've chipped in myself on banjo and guitar tutorials - not a lot, just £1 here and £2 there, via paypal, if I've thought the material was particularly good - which in fact would be about 1% of what's on offer!

Sellers has the biggest and best marketing - he has something available on every front but has avoided the temptation of selling or promoting tools which is a relief and much to his credit. He's stuck strictly to his last, which is teaching, training, information - with a very solid base in fundamentals.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

I agree that Sellers has a superb approach to his web based marketing. There is a somewhat counter intuitive argument that the vast majority of traditional businesses just don't get. It goes something along the lines of.....you cant give too much value away. In other words, you could post 48 hours of free YT videos with all the "trade secrets" and it would actually promote your business rather than injure it. Basically, the more you give (value), the more people come back to you for more, especially in education and training. Sellers is brilliant at making people want to consume his material because he "gives" so much. That gets his brand trusted and people them want more of his brand. Traditional businesses are too locked into the old (non digital) idea that you need to be paid BEFORE you give free value. The digital age has turned that upside down. Now you need to give first, build your brand and then people will come and pay you willingly for more.

Successful internet woodworkers like Wood Whisperer, Matthias Wandel etc have understood that in spades. It's all about the marketing I'm afraid.

 

[Steve Maskery]

And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.

 

[custard]

And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.

But if you take Jacob's quid and multiply it a million times you get.....flippin' 'eck Rodney, this time next year we'll be millionaires!

And that's the point with t'interweb. Peter Sefton in this workshop isn't scaleable, he can take a dozen or so students and that's it. But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.

 

[Jacob]

And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.

But if you take Jacob's quid and multiply it a million times you get.....flippin' 'eck Rodney, this time next year we'll be millionaires!

And that's the point with t'interweb. Peter Sefton in this workshop isn't scaleable, he can take a dozen or so students and that's it. But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.

Exactly.
But it's got to be really good to be worth a £1 tip!

 

[Peter Sefton]

And that's the problem, Jacob. You value a pint of beer more highly than a "particularly good" tutorial. I'm not having a go at you personally, but you are expressing a very widely-held attitude. Online training videos, even good ones, are almost worthless, economically speaking.

But if you take Jacob's quid and multiply it a million times you get.....flippin' 'eck Rodney, this time next year we'll be millionaires!

And that's the point with t'interweb. Peter Sefton in this workshop isn't scaleable, he can take a dozen or so students and that's it. But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.

We take a maximum of 8 students in the workshop and less when wood machining and are usually fully booked on most courses, it would be great to be able to take on more students and better for profit margins but that would lose the feeling and I believe, quality of what we offer. I have done a few free YouTube and Vimeo videos and written on various forums and in the magazines over the years. I don't have the time or interest to sit all day every day blogging and doing the whole internet thing. My passion is working with my students from behind the bench and pushing both them and myself to produce the best work we can, pulling from my experience of woodworking and furniture making.

I was lucky in that Artisan approached me to see if we could work together to reach a wider audience showing a high level of furniture making and woodworking, hopefully giving a different approach from some of the other DVDs out on the market. Tomorrow I will be showing my students how to make the most out of their existing hand planes and tools, we could shoot a video on that but it has been done 100 times before - we have a lot of students come to the workshop who have invested in some fantastic tools but have very little idea of how to get the most out of them. I hope to be able to show how we do this, and take woodworkers to a higher level after they have achieved the basics, or show them how to achieve those higher levels from the start of their woodworking.

I hope there is a market for this not only in the UK but also across the pond - we have quite a few US based woodworkers who wish to join us in the workshop to see the English way of working and pushing the boundries of making and design - at present these woodworkers cannot gain access to UK education in our school due to UK visa red tape, hopefully this video based learning will reach different audiences ie., students who cannot come on our practical courses due to distance, time or cost.

Cheers Peter

 

[custard]

We take a maximum of 8 students in the workshop and less when wood machining
Cheers Peter

I was talking figuratively Peter, trying to get across a point about the true nature of the web, I hope I haven't caused any offence.

 

[Peter Sefton]

We take a maximum of 8 students in the workshop and less when wood machining
Cheers Peter

I was talking figuratively Peter, trying to get across a point about the true nature of the web, I hope I haven't caused any offence.

No offence taken, I fully understand what you mean.

Cheers Peter

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.

Blimey, how much would an ebay no 4 cost then?

 

[Austinisgreat]

But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.

Blimey, how much would an ebay no 4 cost then?

£20.00 - £40.00 as we speak - just checked!.......... going up.....

Cheers

Andrew

ps got mine for about £7.99 couple of years back :shock:

 

[Jacob]

But Paul Sellers on the web could educate the entire world.

Blimey, how much would an ebay no 4 cost then?

£20.00 - £40.00 as we speak - just checked!.......... going up.....

Cheers

Andrew

ps got mine for about £7.99 couple of years back :shock:

What - you mean Sellers has talked the price up?
Seems to be £20 ish buy it now. Cheap.

What's different about Sellers is that you don't feel his courses are really a front for selling tools and kit - he concentrates on basic skills and knowledge, which, let's face it, is what any person wanting to do a course most likely needs. Nobody is going to find out how to make fine furniture in 5 days. 5 years more like.