what are CLIFTON doing.....

[tobytools]

clifton have been saved my Thomas Flinn &Co, i understand that he would want to add a trade mark of his own to the design on the clifton range but changing it colour seem a waste of time and money..... after all can you get a more 'BRITISH' colour than british racing car green!! i think not,

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hph ... 4086_o.jpg

there are a few issues that need to be addressed before the marketing/design team sit around drinking coffee and say lets change the colour!
some one pointed out about the makers mark on the iron being stamped all over the place. its these issues that need sorting before its colour... call it graphite or what you will is a worse green....

put into production the elusive clifton "BRITISH' block plane, forget the no8, we need a router amongst other planes, but the feature of clifton is its superb steel, if they did a chisel range i believe it would help them out a lot,

anyone else have anything they would like to say on the matter, hopefully this is read by MR FLINN and something is absorbed before this already tainted BRITISH company falls deeper into the same hole its been its entire existence..

we can look over the tolerance issues due to the floods that the factories had but enough is enough.. sort it out, LN and verities are killing the market with new designs and reproductions of every tool possible while clifton change its colour,,,,, (hammer)

what the public think???

this isn't to embarrass clifton tools but to ask the consumer what they think after all we buy the goods..

thanksTT

 

[t8hants]

Deck chairs on the Titanic?

 

[Trafalgar]

Well, the black coating is certainly not an improvement. Surely that doesn't represent much of a cost savings - pennies I'd think.

 

[Stuart]

I love the green on my Clifton smother and the finish on the Clifton small shoulder plane, both are lovely planes to use. It also supports another small enterprise when in my case I buy the tools from Matthew at Workshop Heaven, may Thomas and Matthew have a very successful future supplying good quality kit to us all for many more years. They deserve our support.

I agree with you Toby, they need a wider range of tools and a router and low angle block plane would be ideal. Few of us use planes above a 5 or 5 1/2 as we have planer thicknessers to do the heavy work, but every tool kit needs a block plane (I think). Very few jobs leave my workshop that have not been touched by the sole of a block plane.

If their R and D department need some help developing and testing new products I will offer my services for free, let them just give me more of their lovely tools as payment and I will be very happy.

 

[jimi43]

If I were sitting at that table Toby I would say that they needed a "quick fix" to give them time.

Paint them Graphite and the viral world will talk simply because it's NOT BRG and therefore the brand will be chatted about from Sheffield to Sydney.

THEN...what they need to think about is production cost and what really is their strength.

For me...their strength is and always will be the quality of their steel. If you say "Sheffield" anywhere in the world and ask what people would say next they say STEEL.

A unique design of plane bodies could be made by a good designer...made overseas and armed with Sheffield steel and then painted sky blue pink and it would sell...IF the price was right.

I'd even buy one!

Just my opinion.

Jimi

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Jimi, I hope you're right but I wonder if "Made in Sheffield" has the same cachet as it used to after e few decades of all manner of junk being branded with it.

 

[MIGNAL]

I saw nothing wrong with the Planes as they were. Aesthetically the best of the lot, including the wonky 'stamp', which gave a tilt to 'handmade'.
If anything needed to be changed it wasn't the actual Plane or it's design, certainly not it's colour. Other marketing aspects may have needed changing though. You can see a wonky stamp as being poor quality. Market it right and it can suddenly become a positive.

 

[tobytools]

I saw nothing wrong with the Planes as they were. Aesthetically the best of the lot, including the wonky 'stamp', which gave a tilt to 'handmade'.
If anything needed to be changed it wasn't the actual Plane or it's design, certainly not it's colour. Other marketing aspects may have needed changing though. You can see a wonky stamp as being poor quality. Market it right and it can suddenly become a positive.

the alinement of the stamp was just something some mentioned on the fb page, tho it does point out the quality control, and clifton not having the best track record this can be seen as a reminder of bad times in production, at the same time its these moron imperfections that remind us of homemade/shop made tools and we learn to love them..
a valid point MIGNAL thank you..

cheers
TT

 

[tobytools]

It also supports another small enterprise when in my case I buy the tools from Matthew at Workshop Heaven, may Thomas and Matthew have a very successful future supplying good quality kit to us all for many more years. They deserve our support.

every tool kit needs a block plane (I think). Very few jobs leave my workshop that have not been touched by the sole of a block plane.

+1000 for a block plane. its such a vital tools its ridiculous, especial for fine furniture.
if one was available tomorrow i would pre-order it tonight.

QS beat us to the punch and filled the market gap for a good block plane for a reasonable sum...

TT

 

[deema]

There seems to be at least three distict markets for hand tools

1. DIYer, cheap as anything just needs to bash a couple of nails, plane a but of wood etc. main criteria is Price, and some sort of brand recognition that it will be safe to use. Recognises that the tool will be a compromise between cost and performance, but what the heck, the odd half an hour of DIY a year does not justify the extra outlay.

Vast market.

2. Trade users, need a quality tool. Needs to be fairly refined, however it's a tool that is used every day, may get dropped, lost, left in the back of the van etc. looking for a good tool at a reasonable price.

large Market

3. Enthusiast, professional user. Normally primarily bench / indoors work, fully appreciates the quality of the tools they use, invests in a tool to last a lifetime. Happy to pay for quality as long as it real is quality and highly likely to trade up for a better tool if they can appreciate a real or perceived benefit that has been created by the new tool.

Small market

Clifton need to decide which market segment they are in and focus of producing the best quality tools, that have the best performance. Like Veritas, a premium range and a super premium range will sell if the features are sufficiently differentiating. 100% made in the UK is highly valued and people appreciate it will be more expensive. However, it must be ABSOLUTLEY spot on for quality.

I look on in despair how quality British products loose track of what they are doing and end up losing market share and ultimately close as a consequence. Can anyone off the cuff state why you should buy Thomas Flynn saws? No, thought not. Anyone tell me if Lee Neilson is a really quality product, everyone put their hands down. Which is the most expensive? Which sells the most product in the UK? Both made in high labour cost countries, but why is one more successful than the other?

Lie Neilson and Veritas are very good at telling us why their products are superior, highlighting the benefits and as a consequence most people have developed a recognition of the brand and also an aspiration and desire to own them. If you see one of these products lying on a bench, you know the owner has spent some serious money, but you also know they have invested in an excellent tool.

If you see a Thomas Flynn saw lying on a bench or a Clifton plane you think what? Well enough said.

As they say, if only I had enough shekels to have bought the company, changing the colour would not be the issue I would be addressing.

Mr Clifton, Mr Flynn, wake up.

 

[MIGNAL]

Why? What's wrong with the Clifton Plane that makes you think it lacks a little quality? Can you be specific.

 

[tobytools]

There seems to be at least three distict markets for hand tools

1. DIYer, cheap as anything just needs to bash a couple of nails, plane a but of wood etc. main criteria is Price, and some sort of brand recognition that it will be safe to use. Recognises that the tool will be a compromise between cost and performance, but what the heck, the odd half an hour of DIY a year does not justify the extra outlay.

Vast market.

2. Trade users, need a quality tool. Needs to be fairly refined, however it's a tool that is used every day, may get dropped, lost, left in the back of the van etc. looking for a good tool at a reasonable price.

large Market

3. Enthusiast, professional user. Normally primarily bench / indoors work, fully appreciates the quality of the tools they use, invests in a tool to last a lifetime. Happy to pay for quality as long as it real is quality and highly likely to trade up for a better tool if they can appreciate a real or perceived benefit that has been created by the new tool.

Small market

Clifton need to decide which market segment they are in and focus of producing the best quality tools, that have the best performance. Like Veritas, a premium range and a super premium range will sell if the features are sufficiently differentiating. 100% made in the UK is highly valued and people appreciate it will be more expensive. However, it must be ABSOLUTLEY spot on for quality.

I look on in despair how quality British products loose track of what they are doing and end up losing market share and ultimately close as a consequence. Can anyone off the cuff state why you should buy Thomas Flynn saws? No, thought not. Anyone tell me if Lee Neilson is a really quality product, everyone put their hands down. Which is the most expensive? Which sells the most product in the UK? Both made in high labour cost countries, but why is one more successful than the other?

Lie Neilson and Veritas are very good at telling us why their products are superior, highlighting the benefits and as a consequence most people have developed a recognition of the brand and also an aspiration and desire to own them. If you see one of these products lying on a bench, you know the owner has spent some serious money, but you also know they have invested in an excellent tool.

If you see a Thomas Flynn saw lying on a bench or a Clifton plane you think what? Well enough said.

As they say, if only I had enough shekels to have bought the company, changing the colour would not be the issue I would be addressing.

Mr Clifton, Mr Flynn, wake up.

well said...

TT

 

[deema]

I think Clifton and Flynn products are excellent quality tools. I think however that the brands are perceived to be a lower value product that either Lie Nielson or Veritas which is simply down to how they are presented, marketed and that they don't take the extra trouble of ensuring their products are completely niggle free. You won't find a wonky stamp on the either of the two tool manufactures products. It takes just as much time to do it correctly as it does to do it wrong.

The focus should be making the best possible tool that is not just good, but absolutely excellent performance. Set the price accordingly. They seem to be in the loop of cost down, price down not knowing whether they want to be in the Trade or Enthusiast market. The latter I would wager has higher margins than the former.

If the tool you have bought has been hand crafted by 'Fred' who has served a 5 year apprenticeship and appreciates that a well refined tool is treasured, we will and do all buy into that. Look at how Lie Neilson emphasis the fact that their tools are all hand crafted by people who care. Tell us please about the way you have made the product and what we are buying for our money. I would like a ticket in my plane that is hand written by Fred telling me that he personally guarantees that this is the very best product he has ever produced and if I'm not completely satisfied he will come and fix it for me. Give me a lifetime guarantee and then show me how to protect my latest purchase in a special wool sock with green credentials preservative that stops the dreaded rust that has the big company logo on it. Better still a sticker saying that Nelly has just knitted it with love and fitted it to perfection to my plane. No one does socks that actually fit the planes. My socks are knitted to fit my feet so it's not that hard is it. I would pay a lot more for a properly shaped sock.

There is a market for planes that cost £5,000 + so a market where a plane costs say £500 also exists, I would love to own a £5,000 plane, and somewhere inside me I know it won't do the job that much better, but I sure as hell will love using it every time on those 'special' jobs.

The enthusiast market in the USA is massive, and a high quality British manufactured tool will sell. It needs to be lovingly cast, machined, setup to perfection with the best quality steel blade that is guaranteed to have the right hardness, dead flat and fully polished with the bevel properly made. However, you need to sell / tell your customers about these features otherwise it's just an expensive plane that no one will recognise as being anything other than 'ordinary'

I won't buy anything just because the paint is a different colour.

 

[deema]

By the way, if Mr Sedgwick, Flynn are interested in selling their companies please PM me, I would in all seriousness look to buy them. You have a great future, but you are IMO squandering a wonderful history of machine and tool making.

 

[MIGNAL]

I think Clifton owners will tell you that they are superb performers. Every bit as good as LN and Veritas. It's come down to a wonky stamp, which I would argue isn't 'wrong' but 'right'. As I stated previously, it's a tilt at handmade, a tilt at traditional sheffield Plane blade making. We aren't referring to the sole of a Plane that requires a certain tolerance or the mating surface of the frog. It's an aesthetic issue. I prefer the wonky stamp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM

 

[NickWelford]

The only Clifton tool I have is the convex spokeshave, which is great. I'M not sure there is an equivalent from another manufacturer. I would love a Clifton plane, whatever faults some perceive they have. Just can't afford it over my crappy no name plane. My planing skills are crappy too. I would hate to see them disappear, and hope something is sorted out.

 

[iNewbie]

I think Clifton owners will tell you that they are superb performers. Every bit as good as LN and Veritas. It's come down to a wonky stamp, which I would argue isn't 'wrong' but 'right'. As I stated previously, it's a tilt at handmade, a tilt at traditional sheffield Plane blade making. We aren't referring to the sole of a Plane that requires a certain tolerance or the mating surface of the frog. It's an aesthetic issue. I prefer the wonky stamp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM

No. Its wrong -imho.

Its a romantic idea to say 'its a tilt at handmade' when they needn't be stamped that way.

They're selling something that is at the top-end of that price range and a mistake is a mistake - its like buying a Rolls Royce with the Silver Lady misplaced...

If they don't care enough about that small detail (their mark) what do they care about on the rest of the product.

And they shouldn't change the colour! :mrgreen:

 

[Peter Sefton]

I would hate to see them disappear, and hope something is sorted out.

Who said they are going to disappear? They have been bought out by another sheffield tool maker Thomas Flinn. They have only been in charge a few weeks the first and very visible difference is the colour. I believe they will be making other tweaks in time but these things do not happen overnight. I know they are very busy at present looking into how they can improve the planes and I am sure any positive feedback will be appreciated.
I am very interested to see how things will pan out where Clifton go from here.

 

[MIGNAL]

I think Clifton owners will tell you that they are superb performers. Every bit as good as LN and Veritas. It's come down to a wonky stamp, which I would argue isn't 'wrong' but 'right'. As I stated previously, it's a tilt at handmade, a tilt at traditional sheffield Plane blade making. We aren't referring to the sole of a Plane that requires a certain tolerance or the mating surface of the frog. It's an aesthetic issue. I prefer the wonky stamp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM

No. Its wrong -imho.

Its a romantic idea to say 'its a tilt at handmade' when they needn't be stamped that way.

They're selling something that is at the top-end of that price range and a mistake is a mistake - its like buying a Rolls Royce with the Silver Lady misplaced...

If they don't care enough about that small detail (their mark) what do they care about on the rest of the product.

And they shouldn't change the colour! :mrgreen:

I suspect that being misplaced was somewhat deliberate. If Clifton can get a sole within 0.075 mm I suspect that they wouldn't have much problem getting a stamp centred within 1 or 2 mm's ! If you look at a lot of old Sheffield Plane irons (as I have) you will be hard pressed to find one that was centred. They obviously didn't think it was important, it isn't. It's obviously a Sheffield tradition. Not much different to Bill Carter's Planes. They aren't 'perfect'. Crikey, they still have the stamp from some long forgotten saw maker! What's that all about? Maybe, just maybe it tells you something about craft and handwork. Accuracy when and where it's needed. Yet to see a perfectly formed Rembrandt signature perfectly parallel to the bottom edge of the painting!. In fact many great craft items throughout history have wobbly stamps or signatures. Part of the tradition. I follow suit with the labels that I place in my Guitars.
Of course if you want nothing but accuracy and 'perfection' there is always. . . Ikea furniture.
Perhaps the fault with Clifton is that they didn't make enough of their wobbly stamp. I love their wobbly stamp. Everyone should have a wobbly stamp!

 

[iNewbie]

I suspect that being misplaced was somewhat deliberate. If Clifton can get a sole within 0.075 mm I suspect that they wouldn't have much problem getting a stamp centred within 1 or 2 mm's ! If you look at a lot of old Sheffield Plane irons (as I have) you will be hard pressed to find one that was centred. They obviously didn't think it was important, it isn't. It's obviously a Sheffield tradition. Not much different to Bill Carter's Planes. They aren't 'perfect'. Crikey, they still have the stamp from some long forgotten saw maker! What's that all about? Maybe, just maybe it tells you something about craft and handwork. Accuracy when and where it's needed. Yet to see a perfectly formed Rembrandt signature perfectly parallel to the bottom edge of the painting!. In fact many great craft items throughout history have wobbly stamps or signatures. Part of the tradition. I follow suit with the labels that I place in my Guitars.
Of course if you want nothing but accuracy and 'perfection' there is always. . . Ikea furniture.
Perhaps the fault with Clifton is that they didn't make enough of their wobbly stamp. I love their wobbly stamp. Everyone should have a wobbly stamp!

We're in a modern age though where perfection -as close as it can be- is expected for expensive goods - let alone cheap.

Mine has the wobbly stamp. I'm a member of the wobbly club! :mrgreen: