what are CLIFTON doing.....

[deema]

Mignal is right, there is nothing wrong with the stamp being off centre.....if it's placed their by hand by a craftsman. If it's stamped on by a machine, then it's a case of the setup of the machine / jig is poor, and it's down to a lack of attention to detail.

Let's assume its a person with a hand stamp and a very heavy hammer adding the stamp to the blade. It's very prominent and is a real feature of the plane. Advertise, uTube how the stamp is applied, let everyone know its Fred who has personally made it and he did it by hand. The alignment of the stamp is the statement that it's completely hand made. It's the feature of the quality of the product.

We actually don't know how the stamp is applied, it emphasises the difference between for instance the Lie Nielson planes and Clifton plane I have. The former, when I researched what to buy I was able to see on uTube how the wooden patterns were made, how the casting is done, how the machining was done, how in fact everything was made. I believed it was a hand made quality tool. The Clifton plane, well, I'm just guessing. I wanted to try and support a UK company so bought a shoulder plane. I had no basis to know whether is was cheaply made in China, badged and sold or a quality British made plane. My reference was actually this site where people had said they were a good quality plane.

I am rather passionate about all things made in Britain. We have truly excellent people making truly excellent products, we are in many cases just awful at knowing how to market and sell the stuff and therefore command a reasonable price for our products.

 

[Stuart]

I have pre 1950 Record and Stanley planes and two Clifton and one Lie Nielsen and spent my working life using planes. The planes I enjoy using the most are the Clifton planes. The others in my kit are also good tools and work well but the Cliftons make me feel good when I work with them.
If any of you out there have not used a Cliton plane and are basing you remarks on what yo have read please try them out, if you live around West Oxfordshire come and try mine.

 

[jimi43]

I think that the accurate placement of the mark is way down on the list of things I would be worried about and it a total red herring...or is it racing green herring...one can never be sure! :mrgreen:

Jimi

 

[Peter Sefton]

This video has been out for a few years and shows how the all import and stamp is done. I agree with Stuart I have used and own a fair range of planes but the Clifton has a different feel to the others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdH43wiB0IA
Cheers Peter

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Suggestions for improvements to Clifton planes:

1) DO NOT redesign either the bench planes or the shoulder planes. Both are excellent (and the green paint is a lovely, elegant finish for the bench planes, now familiar to all seasoned woodworkers).

2) DO NOT compromise any of the manufacturing stages, especially not the cutting irons. Clifton irons are the ONLY multiple-strike forged blades on the market - keep it that way, and plug it in the marketing.

3) Offer a (nice, solid) single piece cap-iron as an after-market option for those who really don't get on with the stayset capiron.

4) Carry out a final inspection of each fully-assembled bench and shoulder plane before boxing it, including a check for sole flatness against a calibrated inspection-grade surface plate, and a check that all adjustments work correctly, the handles are secure and that finish is good. Provide a small inspection certificate, initialled and dated by the inspector, in the box with each plane.

5) Don't be afraid to build a detailed website showing how the planes are made, machined, assembled and tested. Show how to set up the planes for different jobs, and what they can do. Show how to look after the planes, and how to keep them performing at their best. (I'm quite sure one or two Clifton distributors would be delighted to collaborate on a few short videos or write-ups to this end.)

6) Don't knock anybody else's planes. Just demonstrate the Clifton commitment to quality in design, materials, workmanship and finish.

Just a few thoughts!

 

[matthewwh]

The iron is cut with reference to the grain of the forging rather than the position of the stamp - hence some of the stamps are misaligned. To do it the other way around would defeat the object of forging it.

The unhardened portion of the cutting iron (from the slot upwards) acts as a vibration damper, sandwiched between the soft frog and soft body of the cap iron it makes sure that the hardened business end is incredibly well held.

If any change were needed, it is increasing the price to properly reflect their quality.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

My #3 Clifton is my favorite smoother. As I am also "jigless", I also like the two piece "Stay Set" cap iron, as I can pop out the iron, take a few licks on my hard arkansas, and maybe a strop or two, and be back at it. I've said here and on the several American forums I visit, that the Cliftons are the equal of LN and LV, deserving consideration for purchase. I also have found the color (and polish of portions of the sole) to be very handsome and would hate to see the color change. There is a bright side, with that being a definitive collector point (and there will be collectors) of the green and post-green versions.

As an aside, I seek out Record planes with the "stay set" cap iron, having purchased a #4 and #7. If they only had the Clifton iron also! I have retrofit one of my Bedrocks with an aftermarket Clifton 2 piece cap iron.

 

[Biliphuster]

A £100 block plane would be a great addition to the range. £100 is an amount that prevents it from becoming a huge purchase and then you are in people's tool kits, building trust and good feeling. When they eventually decide to get a premium No 4, or fill out their kit with a jointer, you know where they will be looking. For comparison, a pretty little Lie Nielson 103 can be had in bronze for under £100 and is extremely tempting.

Lie Nielson and Veritas both have slick YouTube channels (Ln especially, beautiful tranquil workshop in front of garden filled bay windows) which go a long way to forming a relationship with a customer, Clifton are by comparison a rather mysterious entity. That there is a video out there already which shows the entire making process, but that has basically no mention of Clifton in it is a real shame.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I don't have a Clifton plane but have one of their irons and two piece cap iron in my Record #6, which improved it greatly over the skinny Stanley replacement iron in there when I bought it.

Personally I think the new colour is good; though Roundel blue would be better :wink: I just hope that Thomas Flinn can improve the web presentation.

 

[JimB]

British Racing Green was paying homage to Ireland, why not say the crooked stamp is also.

 

[Graham Orm]

The change of colour is clearly to mark the change of ownership, so that in 100 years (or maybe even in a year) people will be able to easily differentiate the good Cliftons from the 'vastly improved' Flinn-Cliftons.

The green was original and an easily spotted ID of the Cliftons, I'm sure they could have done something else to mark the change. Old Stanleys are aged accurately by any number of slight differences.
I suppose that changing the colour is the quickest and cheapest way, but surely it should mark an improved (insert your particular dislike here), rather than just the change of ownership.

If the wonky stamp is deliberate, in my opinion it's a mistake. The tools are targeted at the connoisseur who will want everything perfect I would have thought. If someone were buying a Clifton without knowing much about planes, (which is unlikely), the wonky stamp would instantly suggest poor quality.

As already posted a set of chisels or a new model would do them more good to commemorate the take over.

Lets give them 5 minutes and see what happens.

 

[iNewbie]

Mignal is right, there is nothing wrong with the stamp being off centre.....if it's placed their by hand by a craftsman. If it's stamped on by a machine, then it's a case of the setup of the machine / jig is poor, and it's down to a lack of attention to detail.

Do you think people would accept a LN or Veritas with a wonky stamp. It makes the item look like a second when another is dead on -- regardless of Matthew mentioning its due to the grain.

Is it really that hard to do it right seeing as that stamp is also a statement of buying British - I don't want to think British Leyland all over again... :mrgreen:

Let's assume its a person with a hand stamp and a very heavy hammer adding the stamp to the blade. It's very prominent and is a real feature of the plane. Advertise, uTube how the stamp is applied, let everyone know its Fred who has personally made it and he did it by hand. The alignment of the stamp is the statement that it's completely hand made. It's the feature of the quality of the product.

Lets ignore Friday Fred and get the blummin' thing on straight. If you want a selling point then its: each blade is cut with reference to the grain. We're so finicky the only blades that leave our factory are ones where the Makers Stamp is dead on and central. If the Stamp isn't central to the blade its deemed as a second and discarded.

Thats attention to detail - No Fred's were harmed in the above suggestion.

 

[Sheffield Tony]

As already posted a set of chisels or a new model would do them more good to commemorate the take over.

Lets give them 5 minutes and see what happens.

I don't see the need for Clifton chisels. Thomas Flinn already sell a range of "Made in Sheffield" tools including Robert Sorby chisels. And if Clifton made chisels as they make plane irons, they would be in direct competition with Ashley Iles.

 

[MIGNAL]

Sad really. It's obvious that some folk have been so conditioned by industrial production that even a makers mark has to be subjected to obsessive disorders. Even sadder when it's on a woodworkers hand tool forum.
It's a mark, a stamp. a signature. What on earth has that got to do with the quality of the rest of the Plane? If you can't discern that it has zero bearing on the quality of the Plane then perhaps you need to take up a new hobby or profession.
I suggest stacking shelves. But make sure you take your spirit level and that all the 'Heinz' are pointing in the exact same direction.

 

[bugbear]

A £100 block plane would be a great addition to the range.

With a Clifton #4 at £254, and a LN #4 at £269, there's every reason to believe that the price of a Clifton #60 1/2 would be more like £150, i.e. very similar to the LN product.

And, don't forget, Clifton couldn't make a living at those prices.

But, yeah, I'd certainly like Clifton to sell me a block plane for £100. But I think that's in my interests, not theirs.

BugBear

 

[Fromey]

My only hands on experience of Clifton planes is their 3110 shoulder plane. It's a nice plane but I did need to do some obvious filing away of sharp edges where my hands hold it. Filing you would have expected to be already done in a high quality product. In addition, the thin metal shims that regulate the size of the mouth are individually numbered to match the toe piece and flattened (good) but the locating holes have been drilled off line so the shims sit skew and stick out the side of the plane. So my verdict is they are good but not excellent.

As for Thomas Flinn. I took my rip saw from them to the NEW workshop and asked Chris Schwarz to have a look at it. After some cutting and close inspection he evaluated it as one of the biggest pieces of crap he'd seen in a long time. There is also a report somewhere (can't recall the forum) that shows they drill the handle and saw plate holes in one go, leaving a mangled and scorched mess inside the handle. So I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for Clifton planes improving in quality under this new stewardship.

 

[G S Haydon]

It'll be interesting to see how this progresses. As much as I like the Stay Set I think it would be a good idea to offer a normal cap iron. Enough writers and consumers dislike them and tell all and sundry how poor they are. Offering the option would seem an easy fix.
And yes to promoting the cutting Iron. Other makers are happy to promote the virtues of their "miracle" steels when in fact the Clifton Iron is bang on the money for how a cutting iron "should" :lol: be made. The unique way the cutting iron is made and why it is "better" :lol: than the rest could really work.

On a side note perhaps someone could help me with this. How are American dealers able to sell a Clifton #4 for $335 > £208.00 and UK buyers typically pay $409 > £254? In the US LN #4 in Iron cost $300.00 > £186.00. Perhaps that's some of the reason why people in the US are able to support the quality tool makers more easily. Combine the cost of a UK Clifton with a ebay market of decent planes for £25.00 in the UK it not hard to see why British tool boxes have not been graced with British Racing Green to the same extent as LN in the US

The new colour, it's OK but black would be my choice. It contrasts nicely with the wood, brass and polished surfaces.

Fomey, do you have a link to the saw that was rubbish? What was so bad, the handle, how it was set?

 

[thomasflinn]

My response to this is as follows:

There are a lot of ideals in the tool making industry that take time, man power and a lot of investment. My job is to deal with practical side of it, ie looking at costs, realism and realities of what we can and cannot do. Rome was not built in a day.
We took on Clifton knowing that we would have to take a lot of steps forward to increase production and get this business to a stage where we can attempt to work from stock and ensure customers can get a British made product more quickly than before. As we only took over little over a month ago, this will take time (and a lot of money!). For example, there is an 8 week queue at the foundry for casting plane bodies. This cannot be changed but does mean we have already invested heavily in more stock than the previous owners.

We decided on a colour change due to the quality of paint work. If you check out your green ones, you will note they often look lumpy. This is not a finish we liked or preferred so the simple colour change was NOT thought out round a table whilst drinking coffee (I have never drunk a cup of coffee, nor do I ever plan on). The cost of paint is actually higher but we hoped this would give a more aesthetically pleasing look. It is also a great way to mark a change. A new start. The phoenix rising from the ashes. I am aiming to work for the new Clifton generation and encourage new users, not blemished by previous opinions of others. People willing to try something because they want to, not because they have read some personal opinions (often very in factual) on a forum.

We are also working to eradicate the wonky coined Hand Forged mark so many of you do not seem to like. I hope that when we do change this, I will not have another massive thread on here! We may look to offering you options on these blades, ie traditional coined/stamped mark or laser marked. There will be costs involved in these options and at this stage, this is something we are working on as Peter Sefton has pointed out.

Moving forward, there are plenty of reasons to buy our saws. We offer a wide range to suit different budgets and use high quality materials in our saws. Our saws have folded brass backs which can be re-tensioned or re-bladed over time. The weight of the heavy brass back offers great balance and basically allows the saw to do the work for you. Our saws often come top of performance tests and are championed by many a user across the world.
We ship our saws to 40 countries world wide, with the majority being sold in the USA.

Also, Mr Flinn (and I not a Y) sold the business in 1936 and there's a lot of talk about men being in charge at Flinn on here. Not the case, there's a lot of female involvement and I have been a senior partner for a good few years now, even being the one responsible for the ecommerce business and choosing all tools you view and buy. I have also been in the top 3 at a prestigious Made in Sheffield award for the past 3 years running. I have also recently been profiled as one of the top 100 businesses in the Small Business Saturday UK Campaign. We champion small business and appreciate all our customers as without them, we could not continue.

I thank you all for your opinions. I am now off to have a cup of tea and get on with the tool orders I have. xxxxx

 

[thomasflinn]

My response to this is as follows:

There are a lot of ideals in the tool making industry that take time, man power and a lot of investment. My job is to deal with practical side of it, ie looking at costs, realism and realities of what we can and cannot do. Rome was not built in a day.
We took on Clifton knowing that we would have to take a lot of steps forward to increase production and get this business to a stage where we can attempt to work from stock and ensure customers can get a British made product more quickly than before. As we only took over little over a month ago, this will take time (and a lot of money!). For example, there is an 8 week queue at the foundry for casting plane bodies. This cannot be changed but does mean we have already invested heavily in more stock than the previous owners.

We decided on a colour change due to the quality of paint work. If you check out your green ones, you will note they often look lumpy. This is not a finish we liked or preferred so the simple colour change was NOT thought out round a table whilst drinking coffee (I have never drunk a cup of coffee, nor do I ever plan on). The cost of paint is actually higher but we hoped this would give a more aesthetically pleasing look. It is also a great way to mark a change. A new start. The phoenix rising from the ashes. I am aiming to work for the new Clifton generation and encourage new users, not blemished by previous opinions of others. People willing to try something because they want to, not because they have read some personal opinions (often very in factual) on a forum.

We are also working to eradicate the wonky coined Hand Forged mark so many of you do not seem to like. I hope that when we do change this, I will not have another massive thread on here! We may look to offering you options on these blades, ie traditional coined/stamped mark or laser marked. There will be costs involved in these options and at this stage, this is something we are working on as Peter Sefton has pointed out.

Moving forward, there are plenty of reasons to buy our saws. We offer a wide range to suit different budgets and use high quality materials in our saws. Our saws have folded brass backs which can be re-tensioned or re-bladed over time. The weight of the heavy brass back offers great balance and basically allows the saw to do the work for you. Our saws often come top of performance tests and are championed by many a user across the world.
We ship our saws to 40 countries world wide, with the majority being sold in the USA.

Also, Mr Flinn (and I not a Y) sold the business in 1936 and there's a lot of talk about men being in charge at Flinn on here. Not the case, there's a lot of female involvement and I have been a senior partner for a good few years now, even being the one responsible for the ecommerce business and choosing all tools you view and buy. I have also been in the top 3 at a prestigious Made in Sheffield award for the past 3 years running. I have also recently been profiled as one of the top 100 businesses in the Small Business Saturday UK Campaign. We champion small business and appreciate all our customers as without them, we could not continue.

I thank you all for your opinions. I am now off to have a cup of tea and get on with the tool orders I have. xxxxx

 

[ColeyS1]

Any talks about changing the shape of the handle ? I bought a clifton no6 and usually vear towards the lumpier more comfortable record no7. I like the green colour but if you can get a better finish with a different colour than so be it !!
On a side note, I can't imagine not drinking coffee :lol: